1v1s don't really have a precedent or standard in Halo, so I think they're allowed to get away with that. But for all other maps, it's the consistency that would bother me. I'm not against "thinking outside the box" or going against the mold; however "as a scrapper", I would definitely see that was a geometry flaw or a position flaw before I delayed the spawn time in response to a pacing issue.

Like I said you try to fix different things but sometimes it is the only option. Really it should not be to much of an issue in the main player counts but with maps that are not the norm for these player counts it can sometimes be the best answer.

Oh Lord lol.


1: Legion has the powerups not spawn at start. It's possible.


2: it's not a bandaid fix. When you have an asymmetric map, it makes a lot of sense to not have power weapons at start. It makes for sloppy initial rushes and there's almost always a disadvantage for one team. What you're saying is to compromise the map itself just for the sake of initial spawns. Initial spawns are probably the least relevant thing about a map, they don't matter.

3: knowing where things spawn doesn't have to be spelled out. I don't even point my initial cameras at any power weapons because I think it's stupid. Map knowledge comes with time, just like every other map from every other game ever created.

Initial spawns matter to me because they're the first thing people see on your map every single time they play on it. The science aspect of them is probably irrelevant, but I'd redesign a map if I did not like the initial rush. It's one of the things I mentioned to @Demption when we were working on early drafts for Brutalist.

I'm not against delayed power ups if they are integral to the way the map plays. I am against them as a response to a "sloppy initial rush".

I've always thought it was stupid that players run to an Overshield and just headbash each other for it, instead of run to the area surrounding the Overshield to control the vicinity until it spawns. A delayed spawn would very easily "solve" that problem, but I'd sooner put an Overshield in a place you can't headbash.

From what I remember, you can't get to Camo on Legion right off of spawn. You have to go around the map to get to it. That to me is a good power up placement, whereas Camo on Prisoner just gets burned in the beginning. Your OS is different. I think you would prefer people to work their way up top in the beginning instead of bum rush the OS spawn (I don't remember if it spawns at start either). But it's not as if the OS placement is bad. It's just a preference for the way you want the map to play. That is fine to me.

Also, delayed spawns aren't Matchmaking friendly. For the people who are building maps for matchmaking, they ought to consider designing around the established standard. Now that standard is not something I necessarily agree with even though I understand why consistency is important. I've had an issue with that since Reach when Bungie took the Overshield off of one of my maps because they weren't allowing Power Ups in default playlists. This whole weapon pad thing just creates another creative hurdle for us.

I also dislike the way 343 does their loadout cameras. Hovering right over the pick up items on a map instead of showing the general vicinity is just tacky to me. We get it, there's an OS on the map, but where do I need to go to get this OS? I don't see that when it's right in my face.

A camera that shows the general layout of the map gives me more information, and a properly designed map will not tuck away important items in corners that need loadout cameras to find them. You should expect to find power ups and power weapons in obvious locations.

That is my personal subjective biased opinion. In case I needed to remind anybody.

I just don't think the initial readability of a map has **** to do with anything. I agree with everything you said fyi

Obviously because all your maps are dark as denzel washington

@Xandrith When you design a map for yourself, then you have the freedom to do whatever you like without worrying about how public reception will be.

However: When the map is designed to be played in matchmaking and a tournament, how quickly players orientate themselves is very important. You can be stubborn and say that you see no problem with it. But, when it is a common complaint with the map, which it is (I've been visiting Waypoint to hear the reception of the maps), then you know you've fallen short in that department.

You can ignore that feedback, pretend they're all lying or stupid, or listen to it. That's up to you.

In @Xandrith's defense, if you're still going on Waypoint, then you probably don't have very good eyesight after reading some of those posts.

Well people are dumb in Xandrith's defense. That includes everyone talking in this thread. I tend to think a large portion of what is left of the halo community have a hard time with anything intricate because they are all used to midship clones and have never had to learn anything else. So a map with simple clean textures that is a little complex is going to implode their brain.

Anyone down for 2s

That's the thing, I didn't design the map FOR a tournament or matchmaking. The tournament gave me reason to build a 2v2 map, but I'll never forge for anything but the enjoyment I get from the building process and/or getting better.

And yes, the mass majority of the Halo community is just lazy. They're not stupid, but they choose not to think, and they don't believe they should have to. So, even if most of these players don't like it, that doesn't mean there is something wrong with the map. It means they don't want to turn their brains on.

Please don't take this as me trying to defend my map, as I really don't care if people don't like it. I'm open to feedback all day long, but when the feedback is initial readability, I couldn't care less.

I hate your map but I love you bro

Also, for the Overshield example I will bring up Halo 4's map Adrift.

This map already had a **** ton of things stacked against it, but the opening push is probably the most obvious. The OS was tucked in the very middle of the map and players could not contest this position before they could reach it. Therefore, the winning strategy was to run straight for it and double pummel anyone in your way. Whoever had host got it every time.

That's just awful map design. A delayed spawn would "fix" it but that'd still be a poorly designed room with a poorly placed power up.

It wouldn't "fix it", it would fix it. Once the opening rush decides who controls the center atrium you can actually watch the doorways from the top hallways, then it wouldn't turn into an uncontrollable sprint to the center decided by host. It would be dictated by map control. I don't understand how this is a soft fix in your eyes.

Pretty much every single map ever made is designed around constant cycling through power weapons spawning periodically, not at all at once. So why does the start of the game literally have every single weapon spawned on every Halo map, it's ridiculous.

Using the Adrift example:

• If the designer wanted there to be a melee fight for the Overshield, then it's working as intended.
• If the designer wanted players to run for an Overshield and cleanly grab it at the start of the game, then I don't think the center room supports that gameplay, and I would redesign it if that were the case.
• If the designer wanted players to control the center room before grabbing the Overshield, then delaying the Overshield would indeed enable that kind of gameplay, and the center would play just fine.

It just depends on what kind of gameplay they want out of it.

As I mentioned above, I personally prefer gameplay that requires players to control the vicinity before grabbing the weapon. Delayed spawns benefit my gameplay preferences and design philosophies, therefore I would not be opposed to a shift in the thought process behind map pick ups. It could be a positive change for Halo (instead of some things that were actually working fine and changed for no reason, but I digress). Perhaps I will begin to experiment with it on my own maps when I get back on Xbox.

Bungie put the Sword on Reach's Zealot on a delayed spawn and it seemed to work fine, but I didn't see that map having a geometric problem in that location (it had some in many other spots). I'm personally not saying the technique itself is inherently lazy, but there are some maps where I'd say the geometry is to blame moreso than the location of the item.

This references Optic Prison though, correct? I thought that map already had delayed spawns.

@MultiLockOn This is actually one of the reasons I'm redesigning Spellbound, so the topic is enlightening to me. I asked you for your thoughts on some of the stuff that was bugging me.

I didn't like the opening rush because it was difficult to predict where players would go, so everyone just wandered around aimlessly for the first 30 seconds and then all of a sudden you'd see someone with an Overshield. Even when I played with the same people for 10 games, the beginning of the match was hard to predict.

And then there's the geometry itself. The location of my pick ups didn't make for very interesting fights. The neutral encounters around the map were far more interesting, but once those power weapons spawned it felt like you either baited them or you dropped down on somebody as soon as they picked it up. Both of those are design flaws in my opinion; or rather, they are not the way I intend the map to be played.

I'd prefer for players to set up around the pick up and then grab it when it is safe to do so. Whether it is placed in a safe location or an exposed one, that's one of the things I wanted to be consistent.

I'm surprised Optic Prison gets the most criticism, I feel its the only map that tries to emulate the gold standard of Halo 1 2v2s and it's the only map that keeps constant flow even at the highest level. Most of these maps end up similarly to the disk maps in 2v2s ( everyone crouches until weapons/power ups spawn). I'll give most of the forge maps props though, they are miles ahead of the default maps for 2v2s. I'll do a full write up on the maps sooner or later.

I think it's easy to hate because it looks like it was made in Minecraft

But yes I really like the dynamism of the map. Part of me wants to go on Forge and give it a visual overhaul myself but @purely fat probably wouldn't recognize it anymore.

It doesn't get the most hate, it's just being brought up here a lot. Pretty sure Malta is getting the most hate.