Hi fellow forgers! I'm currently making my first invasion map and I am just curios of what you guys here think is needed to make a grrrrreat invasion game. Size, Objectives, Asthetics. . . etc
Thank you for choosing the most complicated subject on Forge Hub. Honestly, every great map has to have a passion behind it. You have to really feel like the map fits with you. This idea will help guide you through the building process, and should fit into a good area of Forge World. But alas, my philosophical tidbits are not what you want are they? Generally, Invasion maps should be large enough to support a vehicle based BTB game, but should also supply many routes for players on foot. The whole basis for invasion is that you want to create a path that the attackers move along towards their ultimate goal, split into 3 sections where there are 3 major points of interest that serve as objective areas/holders. You will know aesthetics when the idea comes to you. Honestly, the best person to talk to here is Bones 153, he made The Hushed Apprentice, possibly my favorite invasion map I have ever played (yeah I know, I'm a suck up.) He helped me design my own invasion map, First Tracks. All in all, you should probably play a lot of invasion online and look at both maps from Bungie and the community before you start (though probably not mine, its a little rough.) Hope this helps, good luck out there. And if you do make a map, send me a message, I'd be happy to see it! [br][/br]Edited by merge: By the way I sent you some info in a private message, so read that for more help.
yeah I know its a bit chunky topic and also thats why I wanted some opinions ^^ thanks for all the tips, I believe they will help me alot with this map. I actually started building the map a couple of days ago, and have been planning it for a while to. so if you would like to take a look at what I've done so far and say what you think I would apriciate it
For future reference something like this probably belongs in the Halo: Reach Forge Discussion. However, one key factor that always works is not to have 3 areas, but 2. One specifically for the first page, the other for the last two phases. Just look at the invasion maps in matchmaking, the do the same.
Flyingshoe brings up some good points. However, it depends on what type of Invasion map you're building. Invasion maps don't need vehicles, nor do they need to support big team. If you want to build a smaller 4v4 Invasion map, that's great too. If you're building a map big enough to support 6v6, it is probably best to have some vehicles. What really makes a great Invasion map is the tiers, the map and loadouts should grow more epic with each phase. Of course balance is key. Aesthetically, do what makes sense. Don't put random bomb points somewhere, actually make it so the bomb is destroying something that leads to the next phase.
I could pretty much create a spam post in this topic by posting one word... Balance. Balance is the key to any matchmaking map and it is even more important in Invasion maps. The fact you've chosen to create an Invasion map first is very brave as you're essentially making three maps in one. The balance has to be perfect in all three maps, or it collectively needs to start weighted at one end and progressively tilt towards the other end. Generally, it is advised to start with it being in favour of the attackers, and make it progress into the favour of the defenders. When dealing with any objectives, you want to make an "Objective Sandwich" in most situations. Example: Attacking Players > Objectives < Defending Players. This makes the objective the neutral ground and gives both teams a fair advantage of completing their objective. If the scenario was run differently, problems would more than likely surface in terms of balance. Example: Objectives | Defending Players > < Attacking Players. Nine times out of Ten, players would clash in battle before even Reaching the objective. Once eventually reaching the objective, it would take significantly longer for Attacking Players to reinforce the objective, where as the Defending Players are much closer, and have more than likely already respawned nearby making it much easier for them to retake the objective. Finding the Balance in Invasion is extremely difficult and requires many hours of testing. Mod: Moved to Reach Forge Discussion
thanks guys I knew it was a good idea to post this on fh, alot of ppl who knows what they are doing and are passionate about forging. If anyone wants to join me in forge and maybe say what they think of what I've done so far and maybe give me a couple of pointers that would be great. GT: DeStarfighter
I have to disagree with stevo. The key to a good invasion map is lack of balance. For the first objective the attackers should absolutely wreck the defenders. The second objective can go either way, and the third objective should be heavily weighted towards the defenders. Throw in plenty of vehicles to be sure the destroying the other team goes quickly. One of the most important things to keep this from becoming boring is to have enough space for the game. Big maps are good.
I am putting together my first serious invasion map myself right now. I won't get into what I am doing much as I do not have the final phase nailed down yet. But I will tell you what I found along the way thus far. Story line must make sense, or you can break cohesion between phases. I read an interesting post by someone talking about how the phases should progress. It made sense in light of how Bungie created Invasion games, but in my opinion, it is not a hard set of rules that you must follow. It said that with each phase you should have more weapons and vehicles - a progression toward more power. But in my case, it is just the opposite. It made more sense to me that you fly across Forge World on a Falcon in phase one to take control of the beach head on the island. This made more sense for an invading force to experience. Then work your way in phase two across the island to the elite structure. This may use the Falcons or it may use a warthog, but it involves getting inside the structure and taking control of it. The third phase relies on vehicles the least, as you must move the core inch by inch out the door to a destination. This is where one finds the most fun in a game - where everyone is screaming and jumping to get that extra inch - or to stop the movement of the core in its tracks. In all of this, I discovered Fire Teams as individually unique roles within the total team. I am exploiting this capability to a large degree. Giving one Fire Team a role that the others cannot possibly have makes it more critical for team work than in any other game type.
Lots of good ol' fashioned fixed camera explosions... *Sigh* Good memories... Anyway, try phasing explosives inside walls and such so that when a side wins... KABOOMYOUAREBLOODMIST.
Make objectives that are fun to capture. Like the 2nd phase on Spire or Boneyard, or the last phase on Breakpoint. When people forge Invasion maps, they always try to put in as many vehicles as possible. Try to focus on infantry combat, using as few vehicles as possible. (This doesn't mean don't have any vehicles, but try to only have like 2 for each team) Also, I'm going to have to side more with Stevo on the balance issue, but not entirely. There should always be a sense of pushing forward for the offenders. Something that kind of ruins Invasion maps for me is when I am able to kill two defenders, and not be able to make any progress. I am going to have to disagree almost completely here. The first two phases should not be easy, followed by an unbelievably hard phase. Each phase should give a sense of progress. Like the 3rd phase on Breakpoint. Its easy to capture the core, but bringing it back it challenging and requires a team effort. Like I said before, try to avoid vehicles, they really aren't all that fun in Invasion. Big maps are good, but fast paced ones are better.
Well, we all have an opinion as to what makes an invasion map fun. Vehicles may not be fun on every invasion map, but to say that vehicles take away the fun from all invasion maps is a bit over simplified.
Balanced gameplay, progressive spawning, and clear objective. It would help if there was a theme. A player should understand that theme from the loadout cam or just by playing the map. Aesthetics are a nice touch, but in playable maps putting a lot of attention into aesthetics creates user distraction and raises the probability of framerate lag.
Yeah, I guess I should take that back. I'm just saying filling the map with vehicles never seems to work. And it seems like most poor-quality Invasion maps are designed around vehicles. Just be modest with them.
yeah I see what you mean. In the map I'm making now is designed to only have vehicles in the first phase and the 2 other is inside the base so I think it makes sense that there will not be heavy vehicles in the last phase [br][/br]Edited by merge: Also I'm trying to make it seem that the objectives are destroyd with shattered parts everywhere and I made it work with the parts thats suposed to disappear but the ones that was going to apear as broken parts on the floor seem to be there frome the beginning. I've labeled them as inv vehicle and put the spawn sequence to the phases I want them to appear in. dont know what Im doing wrong. [br][/br]Edited by merge: you can just ignore the last comment I posted. figured out what I did wrong [br][/br]Edited by merge: The first version of my Invasion map is almost done and ready for some real testing but there is one problem that I just cant fix. (Spawning) The initial spawns are no problem at all and Im not going to use any backfield spawns but the phase spawns doesnt work for me. do you have to use a hillmarker to make them work? I've tried to make phase spawns with respawn points.
Ok, these gave me trouble too. What you need to do is label the hill respawn phase 2 but leave spawn sequence at 0. This creates a single phase respawn zone. Backfield spawns are created by the label respawn zone and putting spawn sequence at the phase you want it to start working. This is the difference between the 2 types. I'll give your map a fly through tonight and tell you what I think.
yeah. but I think it might work now. and if your going to check out the map I've put on my file share recently that is the invasion map Im making but its not finished. I just got freaked out by some threads here where they said their maps had disappeared so I put it up as a backup. I can add u and we can look at the real map together instead [br][/br]Edited by merge: The first version of the map is now done. anyone who wants to help me test it can add my GT: DeStarfighter and we'll have some good test runs
Spawns Just a quick note on Invasion spawns: You want to use 'Hill Markers' under the 'Objectives' folder, as these allow you to orient the camera when the player switches to the spawn point when respawning - and make sure you set a desired radius. Invasion spawns must be designed around the two-man fireteams it supports - and each fireteam MUST have their own fireteam spawn (for each phase as well). To set fireteam spawns, go to the 'Advanced' section under 'Object Properties' and look at the 'Spawn Sequence' property; this controls which fireteam spawns at that point. 0 = First Fireteam 1 = Second Fireteam 2 = Third Fireteam 3 and Up = Selectable by Any Fireteam! Be sure to check this thread for additional information.
That's because getting vehicles to work on a map is difficult. Usually they end up too confined, unbalanced, and overpowering for one team or the other. The only thing that saves most maps that include vehicles, at least from being unbalanced, is that each side has the same vehicles. It's the misuse of vehicles that tends to break a map, not the vehicles themselves. I admit my previous post was a bit of an overstatement on all fronts, and everyone seems to have exaggerated it even more, but the point I was trying to get across is that Invasion allows the teams to move across the map and still not need to go to far to fight, thanks to fireteams and the ability to choose a spawn. The movement in invasion also necessitates larger maps than you would normally have because usually only one part is used at a time.
I completely agree. Too many people throw phases together, then throw more vehicles into the next phase than the last, without thinking about what the purpose of the vehicles would be. To me, the first round of vehicles I place on a map are to bring the story line alive. The next round of vehicles are to counter the first set of vehicles. And if no vehicles are necessary, then they are not added. And this is for any round. I am also playing with the idea that the vehicles in the first round upon the start of the round are the only vehicles in the round. Once they are gone, they are really gone. This is more realistic and it solves the problem for me that vehicles appearing out of no where can damage the story line and the final phase of "pushing" the core to its final destination. [br][/br]Edited by merge: This article was written by urk at bungie, but I believe that it is out of date or simply incorrect with respect to initial spawn points. The spawn sequence is used to identify the fire team.