So, all of those out there who are designing competitive maps in forge, you should take the following things into account: 1 - Symmetry - Competition often relies around the idea of fairness. It would not be that fair if you spawned in a base that had two openings, while your opponent had little cover around him. 2 - Weapons - This is a simple one. If you are planning to make a competitive map, place only the following on the map: Battle Rifles - No More Than 4, Remember You Spawn With Them Carbines - No More Than 4 Sniper Rifles - 2 Maximum Mauler - 1 Maximum Frag Grenades Plasma Grenades 3 - Placement - This involves many important things, primarily spawns and weapons. These should be symmetrical, unless you only have one in the map. In this situation, place it in a central location, such as under the glass on guardian. If this does not happen, then one side is overly strong, which blows fairness right out of the water. 4 - Power Ups - First Off, No Equipment, Whatsoever! If you are using power ups, only use active camo and overshields. Don't use the typical overshield power up, instead use the custom power ups, and give the person twice as much health as the normal. Give these long respawns as well. 5 - Cover - You need to instigate lots of good cover in the gameworld, whether they require crouching or don't, are long or tall. These are not only useful to hide behind, but they also prove to be great places to bounce grenades off of. 6 - Recognition - Your map needs to have a certain feeling about it that is unique, and it needs to be less like a labyrinth and more like a garden with benches scattered about. A great example of this are the power ups and teleporters that were placed on the MLG maps Onslaught and Stockpile. They make it easy for users to recognize a certain base from another, while keeping a symmetrical feel. Although many of these may be quite similar, that is to be expected, because they all constitute a greater whole, the entire map. I hope that you will find this useful, and any more ideas that I and others come up with will be posted as well.
When i make a competative map, i make it in a square shape. 2 of the corners end up bieng the two team spawns, and the other 2 corners are, 1 for sniper, 1 for a weapon to counter it, ususally a mauler, or rocket with 2 shots. i make it so it takes exactly the same time for both teams to get to each spot, so thier is some fierce competition for them ,and then if you win and get it, it pays off. The best way to see if a competative map is, play it. Get some folks in and have a couple games, and find out what works and what dont.
First, I place walls and boxes. Then 1-2 power weapons. Then more scenery, smaller scenery, weapons, and spawns. And Walla, You have a competitive map.
I disagree. I would say all a competitive map needs is balance. A competitive could easily be asymmetrical with "less skilled" weapons like brute shots or needlers, and equipment work fine as long as the placement is good. This sounds more like a guide to creating a MLG map.
well first off u dont start with a BR :squirrel_wtf: if you want a tactical feel to ur map (like i often do), i like to put tons of BRs on the map, so its basically the first weapon...i dont like to make gametypes unless i have to. second off, no equipment? huh? equipment can be awesome, used correctly. also, why should there be a limit to weapons? if you want the map based on long range and tactical ish, add more BRs and snipers. if you want it more close range, add more shotguns or SMGs. pretty simple...and lastly, symettry in general doesnt have to be exact. try putting a shotgun and grav ham to one side and a sniper to the other side, and depending on the map, they could be evenly balanced. same goes for bases (maybe one has better weapons but more ways in...), etc
True. And remember that you cannot use a template for All maps that are considered competitive. It differs greatly depending on size / layout / which gametypes the map is designed for / how many players the map is designed for etc. etc.
Aysymetrical maps (sp) favor an objective, but you dont Need to have one. Take lockout for example, it plays fine at slayer. Symetrical maps favor slayer style game types, this includes oddball, because then there isnt a specific spot that gives you an advantage with the ball.. Symetrical gametypes should be simple, and easy to navigate, with only 1 or 2 power weapons.
Another important thing to take into consideration is the number of spare clips you put on your weapons. I use this a lot when trying to make a map more balanced. For example, if the shotgun proves to be a dominant weapon on a map, but I want to have one there anyway, I set the number of spare clips to zero. That only gives the shotgun holder six shots to do his worst. Then it doesn't respawn for another 2 or 3 minutes, so instead of the shotgun being the tipping point, it becomes a novelty and a lifesaver that could help you rally if you're behind by a few kills. Same thing goes for the rocket launcher. I never give the rocket launcher more than 1 spare clip unless the map is setup specifically for rockets. On my newest map, InStereo, I setup BRs that were placed closer to the center of the map to only have 1 spare clip, while the BRs located in the bases had 2. This lets you start out with plenty of ammo, but as you go along, you have to be more tactical and conserve your ammo.
Seems like some nice advice, I'll scratch down those weapon guidelines for my next project. Why no equipment though?
Equipment usually give an unfair advantage that isn't to be considered competitive. But make of it what you will, if you think that equipment is competitive then by all means use equipment on your maps .
First of, yes this does sound a lot like MLG, although I didn't mean it to be. Second, the needler and brute shot, although fair if used in conjuction with other weapons, don't have a lot of skill when used against those with weapons like BRs and Carbines. They don't require a large amount of skill, and although placement may be fair, the weapon is obviously not. This makes the game about getting the weapon, instead of forcing teamwork onto the player. exactly. most people would advise against equipment because it takes away from some of the pure skill and tactics that make competitive maps fair. but, it is your map, and make it the way that you want, the way that you believe it should be played. just whatever you do don't put fire grenades in there.
I don't understand the MLG mindset. It's too closeminded. First of all, the BR isn't the only weapon in Halo3 that takes skill to use. Second, how is using equipment not skilled and tactical? I've misused equipment plenty, while I've seen others do great things with it. I think they're just resistant to change. If new weapons and equipment are made available, then you need to learn to adapt. Find new strategies and ways to work together as a team and be competitive. And lastly, I've played a lot of MLG made maps and I get sooo bored. There is no fun. It's strict rules, one weapon, limited ammo and no powerups. The gameplay is always the same.
Not to "rain on anybody's parade" or anything... But I think a large part of this community is pretty confused about what makes a good competitive, MLG style, or balanced map. To start, MLG is all about simplistic balance. MLG's mantra is that everything should have a utility - depth in a game should come from a thousand different ways to use 5 different things. It shouldn't be vice versa - 5 ways to use each of a thousand different things. In short, MLG ideally sets out to take a simple gameplay model and then create intense competition by allowing players to get as good as they possibly can within that small constraint. So yes, that does often result in the nixing of, well...a whole lot of weapons, pieces of equipment, etc. It is what it is - if you don't agree with that style of play, then I suppose you shouldn't be in the business of making competitive maps in the first place. Competitive Map Design Now, here is where nearly everybody - even the MLG community itself - is very confused. There are a few good eggs left that remember why and how to make a balanced competitive map. Most people you'll meet at MLG will tell you that for a map to be competitive it must: -Only contain battle rifles -Be symmetrical -Look like a square room with various things in your way Don't be fooled - the best of us know this is NOT the case! In order to really understand what good competitive Halo map design is really about, you have to go back to the days of Halo CE. If you examine the maps that were considered the pinnacle of competition, you had: -Damnation -Chill Out -Hang 'em High -Prisoner Now any of you can tell pretty quickly that NONE of these are symmetrical, all of them contain more than a pistol (the Halo CE version of the BR), and they were certainly not square rooms with stuff in your way. So why were they so great? These 4 maps excelled in the 3 areas of competitive map design that are most important: 1. Interesting geometry that loops back upon itself and creates angles 2. Effective power-up placement 3. Balance of rooms, hallways, chambers and catwalks Number 1 is imperative for map flow. Take damnation for example. Every part of that map ended up wrapping back around on top of itself. This meant that you could be fighting somebody, and then seconds later encounter the same person at a different angle. If you understood the geometry of the level, you could anticipate that movement and create a cat and mouse situation where you would dance around through these geometries all the while enjoying the rotation and vertical interplay entailed in looped geometry. Number 2 is almost a corollary of number 1. Number 1 says that in a given corner of a map, you have to have reasons and ways to dance around that corner and battle with somebody next to you. Number 2 shows that you have to have reasons to move from one of those areas to another. Power-up placement (and the technique of "drop-spawning") is critical to good map design. If you're the king of the hill and you can just sit there taking faces while refilling your sniper, rocket and overshield, that's bad map design. The idea is that power-ups lure people away from powerful map positions in to risky situations AND pull them around the map. That last bit is very important. It's very easy to just stick the OS in the middle because it's the middle. But you have to be careful - ideal power-up placement USUALLY ends up forming a triangle - OS, Rocket, Camo. This keeps you rotating around the map. Number 3 is perhaps the place where MLG users meet their most striking downfall. A good competitive map is not a big field with **** in the way. To complement number 1, you must maintain a comfortable balance between closed rooms, narrow walkways, and open areas that feature dangerous walkways. This helps vary the playing field and create distinctive areas and callouts. Again look at damnation - there are small closed off rooms with simply a number of entrances and exits. Conversely, there's huge open spaces with walkways that allow clear sniping and a breath of fresh air. And of course there's corridors connecting all of this space, providing choke points and nade battles. This is the hardest part to get right in map design, and in the end you must play it by ear. If you need reference, compare your map to damnation. Whoo... that got long quick. If anybody's still reading at this point, I hope you won't think I'm preaching. Most MLG'ers are more confused on this subject than you guys and its become a pet peeve. Hopefully if you guys take a look at what I've said we can see some really spectacular competitive submissions.
I agree with every word that NaStY just posted. I of course edited it down to "blah blah blah," but you guys should read what he posted. Yes but if you follow what NaStY said then getting the weapon requires teamwork. You put yourself at risk in order to gain the reward of a powerful weapon. Sometimes the best indication of skill is taking out your enemy when he is better equipped than you are. Agreed. Different weapons and equipment increase encounter variability, and that's what makes Halo fun. If I want to know who is best with a BR, I'll load up a map with no weapons and BR starts. But I want to enjoy Halo, not try to prove I'm the best. That's why I don't enjoy MLG settings. What's wrong with firebombs? They are pretty much like a sticky nade. But then again, MLG doesn't like those either.
Aye, the only reason I still have a Halo 3 disk is I absolutely love making maps. Halo 3 played by a purist (MLG enthusiast) just isn't fun, and I'm not big on supervariety gimmick flamethrowers. Thus, I'm left with forge. In my opinion, the only console game that has every pulled off the beauty of simplicity and made it competitive AND fun is... :drumroll: Halo CE. Big surprise. Don't know about you guys, but for me the original just never gets old, even in the campaign (which is actually quite repetitive...and yet still fun). And somehow, it's the competitive standard, unbeatable in skill and strategy required. Funny how stuff gets worse as time goes on.
I also read the whole thing and you're completely right. I can only hope that more people here on the forums read what you have written. Will you release a map here on the forums soon? I don't believe that I've seen a map release by you as of yet. Keep up the good work and Happy Forging! Peace // gorebound
Yeah, I would also like to see maps made by Nasty. He made a lot of really good points, and I think I might just load up Halo CE again to take another critical look at those maps.
I agree with the Halo CE part. But I disagree with the MLG part. I have many friends who I play MLG settings with constantly. It is exceedingly fun to play because you are constantly trying to outsmart and outplay your opponent. I do agree with the fact that it does get boring if you play it constantly, but it is great with moderation.