Well first, I was certainly not speaking about contests. I won't shout "this is bullshit" if I submitted a vertical 2v2 map for a 4v4 competition and it lost points because the spawning was bad, but perhaps keep this quote for the future. If I haven't made this clear in my earlier post, I don't judge maps by weighting 100% gameplay and 0% aesthetics. Second @bold: I never suggested people to "stay rooted." I held high standards in past halos when it came to forge, Halo 5 will be no exception.
To think someone would disregard a map because it has no theme seems so douchey to me. Maybe in a contest I can get that but damn man. We've had this forge for a week & now we're too good for maps that don't have a story built in? Don't get me wrong, I love a good themed map but there will be so many kids joining forge for the 1st time & I can't imagine how good it feels for them to build a solid map without trees or a crane & some experienced member craps all over it.
A map doeesn't have to have a story, they just need to have some sort of aesthetic quality to them. No more lego bricks!
Jesus, sorry to open this can of worms earlier. A forged map certainly doesn't have to look like a dev map to be considered good, but since we're given the tools to make maps look a little better than simple block layouts, why not take that opportunity? No, maps don't have to look like anything specific or have any consistent theme or anything, but when we have the opportunity to go above and beyond a blocky layout, I think we should take it. That said, make your maps however you like, but like Goat said, if aesthetics are going to be part of the judging for the throwdown contest or any future contest, you're going to have to give them some consideration if you expect to win.
i see the aesthetic discusson is still going on... in the past i've been a proponent of gameplay > aesthetics because in the past trying to build structual themes and decent aesthetics was quite costly and the more items or budget used was better off going towards improving to gameplay of the map even further. with h5's forge there shouldn't be any excuse for there to not be a general structural theme to create an atmosphere on the map, we now have the flexibility to do it unlike before. there are benfits to strutcual themes as well, LoS control, more 'abstract' pathing and orientation.
People outside the Forge community see Forge maps as "seas of grey" that clutter the playlists. Douchey to disgard the work put into it? Perhaps, but not an inaccurate observation, and it certainly wont change if the maps don't. 343 gave us better tools and the community has already raised the bar with amazing creations like Sandtrap and Rapture. Well no, nobody is going to "crap over a map" if it doesn't have 10 pages of lore and a screneplay for a miniseries produced by Ridley Scout written about it. But the maps that take advantage of the new forge to feel like real spaces are going to have a significant appeal over those that do not, especally to those kids joining Forge for the first time, who most likely have tried their hands at Minecraft. This is the first time we can do those grand designs without compromising on them (well, unless your project is too ambitious).
I'm not going to comment on the rest of the superfluous back and forth, but what Schnitzel said here is important: "Now I know you think aesthetic beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and it is), but no one aside from absolute design snobs are going to find blocky mass outs beautiful. Personally, I find such a stance as nothing more than an excuse to make up for an inability to create interesting/appealing aesthetics." Since Halo 3's Forge the majority of aesthetically "safe" Forgers suggested their body of work was aesthetically lacking because of Forge's limitations. But now, with Halo 5's Forge, it's time to put up or shut up. Maybe a basketball reference is too farfetched for a Forge forum, but you don't see basketball fans siding with players like Deandre Jordan who get endlessly fouled and put on the free throw line because of their inability to convert on one of the most fundamental basics of being a great basketball player (making free throws). So either A) Forgers need to "practice their free throws" and learn the equally important half of making a great map or B) fall short as a complete basketball pla... err, Forger. And no, aesthetics is not just some overarching theme, it goes even further (player acquisition, lighting cues, etc.).
Perhaps we ought to avoid being caught up in the words "aesthetics" and "story" because these terms are somewhat ambiguous and i'd dare say have even negative connotations when it comes to discussing the quality of a map. For brevity's sake, a theme simply means that the geometry makes sense. Story enhances the geometric direction but it is not necessary; aesthetics (artistic details) enhance the atmosphere and in many cases aid the gameplay with things like player orientation; however, this is also not required. The key to a good map in my opinion is a solid layout and strong visual appeal, which can be accomplished without putting any thought into the purpose of the geometry. Nevertheless, create geometry that is strong, consistent and purposeful and you're well on your way to a themed map, and guaranteed to make it more interesting to players looking to fill custom lobbies. We have the pieces, we have better tools, and we have dev support. It's a great time to be a Forger and I personally am excited to see the community challenge themselves to see how far it can be taken.
We have to admit it's tough to make a map that looks good and plays well, although I'd argue a good layout will always be more difficult to create than a good looking layout. But once you land on the layout, why not have more fun witih it now that the tools are there? Lighting alone is a huge benefit to aiding player orientation that requires real life skills to set up. The rest of the community is going to take advantage of those tools and the designs of yore will be left in the dust. We've been conditioned for 4 games now to focus on Gameplay above all because it was all we could do realistically and reliably. But now
this where i'm at atm with my complexion re-imagining, starting to think this style of map might not work so well in h5
As long as we're remaining civil, there's no problem with this discussion. I find it to be somewhat unnecessary, though. I think we all agree that having an aesthetic theme is seen as a strength in general, but some of us don't see it as a necessity.
i'm going to have to disagree. we make maps, part of that is having people enjoy playing on them. with a good aesthetic theme to a map people can orientate themselves easier and the atmosphere takes away from the forge feel which allows for a more enjoyable time playing. i still don't think you should make sacrifices for better aesthetics but i don't think we should deny the role good aesthetics has in a map.
Can we all just agree that gameplay is superior to aesthetics. However, in H5 forge there is no reason aesthetics should suffer to gameplay or gameplay suffer to aesthetics. As our possibilities literally might be, endless. Complexion from H4? That's an interesting map to go after, I had forgotten all about it. Have a Merry Christmas, everyone!