If its not out in the open already, let me detail my problem with you @MultiLockOn and the opinions you treat as fact. You join a party with me multiple times and say to others in the party " damn all the MM choices are a bunch of dog **** maps " there are literally no good maps besides Twice Forsaken. Then after being invited to the trello board by War I notice my map is among the selections and hasnt been approved by you. I then have to come to you personally and ask what your issues with the map were when you playtested it and you give me a list of reasons. You claim there is only one strat on the map in strongholds and in slayer there is only one place to be so its a bad map/flawed design. So I watch the film and none of your reasons are supported in the least bit by the gameplay film from your playtests or past playtests. In fact, it was quite the opposite with your tesm losing due to your one dimensonal play. So I ask you to come look at the map and explain your reasoning on there. You do, and you explain why the map is "trash" and how it will play at the highest level based on PURE CONJECTURE and then you treat that conjecture as fact. Your so egotistical and wrapped up in your own beliefs about how halo should be, its almost laughable. The finiality to your opinions is a joke. I've invited multiple people on to the map and asked them in a very neutral way if they believed the same things you did about the top 2 strongholds being easy to control, garden being useless, and overshield belonging to the team who controls the top balconies. They disagreed, were exrtemely confused and actually held the same opinion I did. You know, the opinion that has been supported again and again by playtests you claim DONT matter. I suggest everyone watch this video. Your so hippocratical its astonishing, I'm glad I watched this tho because it gave me an insight into just how narrow minded you are, even tho you try to play it off as if you aren't. MULTIS way to play halo is the only way to play and the only way anyone should enjoy this game lol. Your opinions aren't fact and you need to stop treating them as such because its toxic for the people around you who lick the **** right off your azzhole. I'm officially done with this discussion and I'm sorry for putting people through my emotional outbursts. You and your false assumptive conjecture has insulted me, my intelligence and the people who helped get Port 66 to the level its at. Is the map perfect? Hell no, and I'll contiunte to improve the gameplay expirence I wanted the map to provide but I can say with 100% certainty that the map isn't flawed like you claim and functions, as supported by numerous playtests, more or less exactly how I intended it to function
Phara 1v1 --- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2017 --- Optic probably. --- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2017 --- That is more like it. Some good old chest stabbing.
many of the most popular halo maps had one main strategy and sometimes a second less used strategy that may or may not be viable depending on the game type being played. A lack of strategy does not necessarily remove enjoyment from the map as long as there's a way to counter. This can be achieved through the use of power ups, or power weapons. Played at a high enough level of skill, for a long enough time. Players will find the most effective strategy to play a map, and strategies will be devised to counter the dominant strategy. It's the nature of the meta. It doesn't matter if the strategy is running around the map and picking up all the power weapons while giving up the advantageous location or holding the best location even though it means the enemy team might get the sniper. Maps will eventually boil down to a general strategy once played long enough at an elevated skill level. That doesn't make the map bad. People are entitled to opinions to decide if they like the meta game on a map or not. That doesn't mean other people can have different opinions.
This, so much this. When it comes to my map Port 66 its worth noting that I wasn't ever trying to force multi to like the map. I expected some people to hate it when I built it, as the map challenges many of the traditional ways people like play halo. My problem stemmed from the fact he was making assumptions on how the map would play based on pure speculation and conjecture, assumptions that weren't ever backed by game-play film and then used that to call the map "bad" in a very insulting manner. There are those who dont believe that power-ups/power-weapons should balance maps, which to me, is completely ass backwards for HALO map design. As I said before, its less about what the power-ups/power-weapons are and more about where they will spawn and how the maps geometry and flow is based around these locations. Some claim that a power-up/power-weapon will only matter and influence a map when the weapon is up. IMO this couldn't be further from the truth. Where your team is positioned before a power-up/power-weapon spawns is vital to gaining control of them. So even when they are not up, they should be having a decent influence on players map positioning. Great post bodey.
W Was hoping someone would catch that and Optic is a donut. ****, every map as a circular flow in at least one direction around it. --- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2017 --- You have grown up so much.
@SaltyKoala I am incredibly fond of your creativity and I would never ask you to design your maps any differently, but I cannot for the life of me fathom why you are being so stubborn on something so obvious, especially when any proposed changes to the design are so incredibly simple to implement. A diverse map pool is good, but I will bet my entire Forge library that your map will play like dogshit in Matchmaking and I trust the conjecture of Multi, Seth and anyone who actually knows what they're talking about over a bunch of Forge kids and "good players" who are responsible for Halo 5 being dogshit in the first place. Port 66 doesn't make any sense within Halo. There are corners EVERYWHERE for kids to toggle crouch behind, weapons that do **** all of encouraging people to push because one weapon means nothing in 4v4, and strongholds that are already in the places you want to be on the map. You don't see **** from Garden door, you don't see **** form OS, and you don't see **** from Binary, so what purpose do those areas serve without their weapons? This game's kill times are not quick enough and nobody teamshots enough to make these strategies work. Sorry, but I don't need to go down on Multi to see that your map has "character traits" that are going to be abused to hell and back in a matchmaking environment, especially when you get actual smart players on the map. There have been strategies to win on all the bad maps in Halo, but that doesn't mean anything for the map's design potential. I held this opinion from the moment I saw the map which is why I assumed that you were not keen on it being featured. I don't dislike what it is trying to do and I'd be the last person to tell you to sacrifice your vision to appease matchmaking. But I find this whole argument to be ridiculous if for no other reason than the fact that you expect Halo kids to play Halo 5 like Battlefield when Halo kids play Halo like Call of Duty. Halo is not designed for crouching chokepointy AR spam and the only people who like that are the lousy players. If you are so keen on gameplay footage that you want to get a game of those of us who hold this opinion vs those who do not and put your strategies to the test, I will hop on and play the map.
Optic has two teleporters, a giant divide in the midle, and 4 powerups that shift the dynamic of gameplay. It is hardly a "donut".
I trust good players more than anyone else. They tend to be more stubborn when it comes to different designs and are harder to convince that something works than anyone else. They are more reactionary and their initial opinion does typically lack, but with enough time their view usually adjusts and you learn things about your map no one else can really show you. This view you are sharing is why there is always issues with forge maps being disliked in matchmaking. What the group decides should go in does not ever truly match what people want. I don't care if you respect them their opinion does not line up with the majority. What you guys fail to realize is that this is customer service in the form of art which makes it more craft than art. If you don't satisfy the customer you are failing at your purpose. I am not even sticking up for the Port 66. I told Salty all of my issues with the map and how I thought he should fix them. Hell, I even gave him advice how to fix the main naysayer issues without compromising things he wants. --- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2017 --- Showing your ignorance.
I don't disagree with what you just said but I just don't see his map strategies translating well in matchmaking, especially at this stage in the game with no reason for social kids to learn them Also, everyone has a different definition for donut these days. Some people think it is simply moving in a circle Some people think it's the fact that you're either shooting someone in front of you or behind you while moving in a circle Some people think it's moving to the center of the map and looking at the edges Some people think it's moving along the edges and looking at the middle Some people think it's all of the above Some people think it's none of the above I honestly don't care as long as none of the things I just mentioned are repetitive. This is why Xandrith's comment about my map last month wasn't even worth entertaining as a joke.
can anybody get on help me put oddball on my map and then test it a few times with me? i didnt mean to quote you lol
What you, seth and multi find enjoyable about halo is much different then what I find enjoyable about Halo and what a HUGE bulk of the Halo population find enjoyable about it. You don't even know what you want from halo and in the rare case that you do, your clueless on how to achieve it. Multi knows exactly what he wants and exactly how to achieve it but has almost zero understanding, or lack of want to understand, anything outside of that narrow window of opinion. Seth has given me the best feedback yet among those who oppose the map. Multi and you both have a severe lack of understanding about how the map plays, what strategy's actually work and why using the garden is key to victory. I've brought several other well respected designers onto the map, and they see exactly what I see. Garden is essentially a "staging" area and it allows a teams to decide how to apply pressure to the upper balconies, be it through a 3-1 split, 2-2 split or going 4 hard in one direction. Knowing when to and how to use this pressure is imperative to victory and without it your team will likely lose. It gives you sight-lines on the entire bottom mid of the map and if your team controls it, it guarantees Plasma Caster, Brute Plasma Rifle and in most cases OV for your team. If the team controlling the upper balconies wants OV they need to drop and be on the bottom level before it spawns, this weakens there influence on the upper balconies and allows them to get flushed out if a player in garden sees them drop. If you arent willing to team shot, or push/pinch with a team to be victorious you shouldn't be playing 4v4 Halo. The map is a brainchild of Orbital and Sword Base and applies many of the same game-play philosophies as those maps. Orbital was either hated or loved and the same will be the case for this map. You keep saying that the map has "character traits" that are gong to be abused, Multi keeps saying this and this will happen blah blah blah. Get some sweatys to play the map and prove it with game-play film. The game-play film I have proves my case, not multi or yours. You treat Multi and Seth's opinions as the word of God and it makes me laugh. I mean I once saw you change something you were 98% happy with just because Multi didn't like it. Learn to think for yourself. As for strongholds we have a very differing mentality for how its should be played. I think it should follow its namesake as a "STRONGhold" meaning they should be placed on the areas of a map you natural want to be, or areas that are already defend-able. The team that can spread out, or move together to defend 2/3 of those already defend-able areas is the team that will win. Strongholds is not KOTH. Its okay to hate the gametype but at least realize that It has the potential to play in a way you disagree with. In every game-play film that I have, so long as the teams are slightly balanced the strat multi claims as the best strat is just not viable and eventually results in a team falling apart. Its actually the team that controls garden stronghold for the majority AND ethier cafe/blue base as a secondary majority that will usually win the match. I have lots of film to prove it. Would you like to watch it with me?
I'm tempted to wade in, but also nervous to do so. Designing maps is hard - I'm the first forger to admit that a) I'm not very good at it, and b) occasionally lucky. But I like making maps that have personality over some Hyper competitive layout. Yes, when I'm forging I try my best to take into account scale, player engagement, how that engagement might play out, etc etc, but mostly I forge 'what I think looks cool'. I've noticed a lot that there is often an air of THIS IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD DO THINGS, but if everyone did that, every map would play the same, or at least in the same vein, would it not? I like taking chances with what I create, I like to inject a little personality, a little 'me' into everything, and evidently, the majority like what I create. The hardcore Halo player? Perhaps not, but I don't make maps for HCS. I watched Multi's video posted earlier in the thread, and I liked it, and agreed with the majority of what he said. Maps like Guardian, Lockout etc have certain playstyles - hold Sniper tower, emerge for power ups, for example, and in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with that. That's how those maps play, once the average population works out how best to win. Part of the challenge for me, is ousting that playstyles and then beating them with it, which is why I enjoyed playing those maps. And if my maps, be they donuts or not, play that way - then that's okay by me. I've won community favourites 3 times (#corruptstaff) but never once featured by those held in reverence for their design aspirations and accomplishments. So I personally feel I'm doing something right, even if others disagree. (typed this on mobile so apologies in advance for rambling/typo's and lacking coherence) <3