I don't mean to be that guy, but in this conversation, you literally said that there is no one at the top. You're not going anywhere unless you have an aim, and if you're going to aim somewhere, you might as well aim as high as you possibly can. That's the utility of the "perfect ideal" and it's even core in Christian doctrine. Jesus was quite literally the only perfect human, and that's maybe in the top 2 most important takeaways from the Bible. We are to aim at perfection and imitate Christ. We are NOT to search within ourselves for a moral standard. But Jesus wasn't a level designer, so we DO have to create our own standards to a certain extent in this regard. I could rely completely on myself, or I could do my best to imagine what the perfect level designer would be like, and strive towards that ideal. I also want to be able to understand where I fall in the ranks of level designers because that can only help me understand why some things/people are better than others, which is inexhaustibly useful information for someone who wants to better themselves.
@Goat I don’t think you really believe what you’re saying. It goes against a lot of your past beliefs. Didn’t you just make a top 5 list for every aspect of forge like a week ago?
I will say the world needs more people trying to be as kind as Jesus. Got too many people trying to be other people. People suck, so it's better to aim for something that doesn't suck. I actually get pissed off when people say 'it's OK, you're only human'. I'm not trying to be human dammit, this crack in my being means I'm infected with stupid!
So I revisited and upscaled my legion/trinity inspired map I made some layout adjustments that allow you to be more aggressive from the other axis of the map (which it lacked before) and worked on parts I didn't like during play tests. I never really understood why scaling on maps like these were so important, but after running around on this it feels MUCH better (@MultiLockOn you even told me to upscale it more lol) and all the scenarios and engagements make more sense like this Theres a lot more dance floor which I was missing, the other one felt very compact and claustrophobic. Anyway here are some pics (You can't really tell the difference in scaling but its pretty significant) BLOCKOUTS FOR DAYS
I still think you're going to have some issues with the middle path. Even when the map was smaller, the middle route took so long to use and was so exposed that it was dangerous to use even if you just won a fight at the base of the path. It's also basically the only way up to the top, barring the path in the top right of the second picture. The problem with that catwalk, if I remember correctly, was that it didn't really see anything other than the middle path, which is already easy to cover from many other points on the map. Also, it's nice that you added floor space, but I think the design is missing what made Trinity and especially Legion tick, which were the pyramids. The pyramid in Legion is used in basically every fight, almost no matter where the fight starts. That map gets so much out of that pyramid and if it weren't for that area, fights wouldn't extend like you want them to. I think you should look to add something like this, but I wouldn't just make a pyramid lol. Something that is viable from all directions that can players can cycle through multiple times in a fight. If the map stays a collage catwalks and platforms, I fear that you won't ever get the gameplay you want out of it
Yeah the pyramids were definitely key to both Trinity and Legion. Central and a little dangerous but offered quick challenges, at the cost of not being able to really go anywhere from them.
Ya after Soldat's tirade I shared my opinion, and it was meant to be jestful. I don't value ranked lists for anything other than personal reference, especially for a hobby almost everyone does in their spare time for their own enjoyment. I don't agree with the implication of everyone striving to a perfect ideal of level design because when it comes down to it, nobody will ever agree on what that is. Of course, I'm all for a serious discussion where everyone shares their opinions and we come to a consensus on what that ideal might be that way. That's why I make those longass posts, so if we're going to talk about contradictions then it'd be nice to not read parodies of them.
"I don't value ranked lists for anything other than personal reference" That's what I've said this whole time. It's useful information for the individual. You've gone from saying that nobody is at the top to saying that you actually rank people lol And you can create your own version of the ideal level designer. Again I literally said in the first post that "This isn't some rule we could tap into stone. It's something that every individual can and should keep in mind. You can also do the exact same thing for figuring out the best map maker." I'm done repeating myself at this point
I like maps that allow aggressiveness, choke points, or both. I also like maps where the gimmick plays well enough where it mixes into gameplay smoothly. I like verticality and fast fights. I also like drawn out battles that require a little wit, and quick predictions. I'm weird.
I haven't "gone from saying" anything. Ranking is inevitable and I am not going to pretend I don't do it. But I don't compare myself against people to "see what I have to learn or improve on" or whatever. That's how you become a copycat with no identity of your own, and I don't want to encourage chasing the perfect ideal if there are only a few people deciding what that is for a game as divisive as this one.
Decide for yourself the ideal. Actually, you already have when you come here on Forgehub and talk about your design goals. I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore.
Ya the ideal for me is that wall of text you found amusing. I don't really care about anything else and I don't think anyone else does either. Being the best at Forge doesn't mean anything because 99% of the community doesn't take it seriously enough to care about the 1% trying to define it. I agreed with @a Chunk when he said we only build what we know and often confuse that for "good level design". Therefore, unless everyone decides to articulate why their values are "better", I don't see the point in fantasizing about a universal ideal.
this isn't my gif, just an example of how ****ing stupid this character is who can dual wield and heals himself and the healing part is insane if you know this game. It takes like a whole minute to get a stack back from low hp, but nah not for this ****er edit: this gif is making me more and more angry every time I watch it