And I appreciate that. Arcanum was literally (and I mean literally) 6 months of banging my head against the wall trying bring a realized key concept to life. And not just do it, but like....nail it. It's easy to sit on a forge forum and **** on things but anything that comes out at this point in response to Arcanum is already at a steep advantage. I've already provided a working precedent of what a key map should be and do well. A lot of ideas seem totally obvious when they're presented to someone but most of the design decision weren't clear..at all. I've already decided that the key has an ammo limit. Elder didn't, and that wasn't something that was totally obvious to me. I had an infinite use at one point, and then time based, and eventually xandrith recommended a door limit. It provides a lot of the same nuances that any other power weapon would but in a more predictable and controlled manner. You can count the doors you use, hell the scripting literally has a number that tells you your remaining key uses. The sound effect tied to the doors opening means that you can predict and count enemy key usage. The key burn that teleports the key player to an inopportune spot. The fact that the key rotates between 3 position that are all, radically different encounters. Easy key is easy, and in immediate proximity of the door. Which moves to middle key which can be contested. Which moves to the dead-end key that changes the pace again to control the approach and trap, and flush. Hell half the time it's worth just to drop into dead key, grab it, jump into the pit and die, and let your teammate grab easy key. NONE of these things had any sort of precedent, I came up with decisions that made sense because I literally sat there for months and figured it out. The fact that the player carries a visual effect just like any other powerup. The number of doors I used. The way the doors are positioned relative to each other to make the key a viable speed boost in how they string together. Hell even the player count was something that I didn't have established. Initially I wanted to 4v4, until I realized that a key in a 4v4 SLAYER match wouldn't do ****. One guy, in a better position, doesn't mean anything when he would just get melted by teamshot (CTF is different, been toying with an assym 4v4 key map for a while now). 2v2 made the most sense. Most good ideas seem obvious once they've already been presented. Setting the precedent wasn't. Using visual affects to label static powerup spawns in place of lame ass weapon pads (lightning strikes on Oblivion, the timekeeper on Legion). The split initial spawns on Oblivion, the Stage 3 Damage boost role. Delaying weapon spawns on assym maps, which have been done for years to be fair, and yet no one capitalizes on that mechanic. Not even in the 1v1 contest did I see a single ****ing map with delayed ANYTHING despite being the most prime opportunity to use that idea. And while this isn't key related, if someone can show me a better example of a physics based object in vein of the swinging lantern on Arcanum that actually makes sense and contributes to gameplay and matches the theme in the way the lantern does, I'd love to see it. Even getting that thing to swing smoothly, consistently, and not hurt the player was a mission and a half for Stinger to script properly. Even Soldat didn't realize on his map that the key effects interfere with physics based objects so he froze his center lantern things so they don't swing. No one here has realized that we got the key scripts to not interfere with the natural physics of the lantern on Arcanum. Building a key map now is literally half the battle. For Arcanum to come out and work at all was a labor of love and for people to come in with some of the stupid ass remarks I'm hearing is remarkable. The fact is even if anyone else had been inspired enough to make a key map, I really really don't think the entire mechanic would have been nearly as flushed out. I don't think it would have been ingrained in a map that even works half as well as Arcanum, and I certainly don't think it would have been presented in the package that Arcanum was. So for anyone who thinks they can do better, let's see it. I've already given you working script prefabs with all the mechanics. I've figured everything out for you guys, and provided everyone with a working proof of concept that we all saw stress tested with those pro fags in the FH 2v2 contest and no one broke the design. Everything you need to succeed is there and easier than ever. But I highly, highly doubt that anyone will be able to. Even making a barren design that makes sense with the key player movement is extraordinarily difficult. How can a room be balanced being defended without using the key to breach. How viable is it breaching with the key. Defending team with key? The fact that a team WITHOUT the key can succesfully check the entire map within ~5 seconds and know where the enemy team is sitting is essential to making it work and that wasn't easy to design. One player with key and the other outside the door? You don't realize how many variables it introduces until you sit down and actually try to mentally tear the map apart, it's maddening. To even make a working design that will have the balance of Arcanum, with the emphasis on actually having rewarding but predictable key doors and speed differentials between players...show me. Seriously I'd love to see it, and to match the differences in key encounters and spawns. To make a design that actually has a key that's worth picking up and isn't a gimmick. And that's not even considering that I built all the geometry around a theme that actually has decent art and framing. Let's see it ****ers. Or you can all just keep talking and not post ****. EDIT: And let's talk about the fact that I didn't want the scripters to have to rescript the entire map every time I wanted to change something...so I didn't. I made a design and got it right the first time without testing it at all. I basically sat there and imagined every possible scenario I could to how the key could play out and be abused.
The concept of a key pickup is that it allows one player to open and close sightlines and take quick shortcuts. However, the current design philosophy on key maps is such that players without this key have to take longer, often convoluted paths to get to a similar position, thereby enhancing the advantage of having the pick up. Whether this is a byproduct of Halo 5 or a personal preference is unclear. However, it remains the most contested element therein, and it's no surprise that there may still be people who do not appreciate this sort of gameplay. But keys aren't the only way scripting can be used to create new mental gameplay. I'd like to see a pick-up based map that actually engages the other players. Let it affect the map in such a way that the other team has to respond to its altered state, as opposed to simply hop on a longer path to reach the player disappearing behind a door. Indeed. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, which is what the key does, so it's not a difficult concept to understand, as you said. But everyone else has to duck dodge bob and weave to get to the same point, and making it only longer relatively speaking is part of that challenge. Those attempting maps of this style need to pay close attention to that ratio, lest the paths end up feeling longer than necessary, which is not something I'd say of Arcanum.
See I could just say that the normal paths aren't longer, the key paths are just shorter. Players will just feel like they're being outran (which they should) when they see someone dissappear behind a door.
Id like to see an Egyptian themed map that has changing pathways every minute or so (maybe this could even be linked to a powerup), it would be difficult as to not trap players or to completely block of paths, but I feel like it could be really cool. With covenant and regular fire you could give a visual cue as to what layout the map is in. It would also require some sort of tick letting people know when its switching.
I would just rather do my own concept honestly. I think it would be very cool for ctf or bomb. Whether the map is asym or sym. it doesn't really matter. The key would have to function differently but I think this is a good use of it that is more appealing for a general audience. For the longest time I have wanted a gametype that people fought over a point to unlock a key that they would then fight over to capture unlock a point to capture. Basically a more dynamic payload gametype.
I started a file of key prefabs and came up with like 5 okay looking designs. Nothing too amazing yet besides that dwarven one I posted
Your counter-point does nothing to address the issue i believe key maps thus far have. The problem is that ‘when you dont have the key’, the maps feel restrictive and limited. Saying ‘then pick up the key’ isnt a counter-point. It completely misses the point made.
I have an idea that's similar. The entire map is split by the river Styx, and when the boat crosses over the life/death threshold in the middle, the map either deteriorates or rebuilds itself, creating and destroying pathways and los as it goes. Might be possible now thanks to smooth movement
Right, I think it makes the role of the obj player less boring and forces the player with the key play more aggressively. Because it would enable the easier flag capture. I am going to do a two flag that will most likely be a pseudo sym.
If you have more than a handful of smooth movement scripts, all scripts together will break. I will try to demonstrate proof that scripts can and will break.
only responding now since i didnt have the opportunity to earlier, but i just want to clear up a couple things i could have explained the blocking routes thing better, but in the example i used in your map, i was pointing out this one specific door of course you can access any part of the map without the key, but this door felt especially irritating without the key. If i wanted to get into this room, im forced to jump through the middle of the map on the lanterns to get here at a reasonable time, and since its so risky, i found myself avoiding this entire part of the map unless i was running in from the middle rather than towards the middle. it essentially blocks an otherwise useful and important doorway to elevate the usefulness of the key. This is my opinion on this area, which i personally disliked. obviously not having the key should inconvenience you, but this one door felt like a huge hassle to get around when compared to the other key doors (which i had no issues with). as for the dead end hallway, i removed fog to get a better screenshot, but the entire hallway just felt like dead space that i just straight up avoided when there was no key (usually there wasnt). From both maps, these long hallways/ pits with one way out serve almost no purpose other than maybe falling in during a gunfight every once in a while or if its the only option to escape a gunfight (which will probably get you killed anyway) when there is no key spawn. The two things i pointed out are just what I disliked regarding the key when tied into the map itself, just these 2; I also understand why these key maps are designed the way they are, but it doesnt change my opinion on them. this response is just elaborating on my examples regarding Arcanum, but my criticisms about key maps are general, i only used the two maps i did because theyre the ones ive played enough to form an opinion on. as for the grenade comment, i was talking about bloodlet throne's dead end room. also keep in mind, im not a key player and this also isnt me giving feedback on a year old map