As an afterthought to the Dallas discussion thread, I thought it'd be interesting to start discussion on v2 early, potentially focusing on the contrast between said v2 settings and what we'll be seeing in Dallas, ie. v1.1. Now I'm firmly of the mind that v1.1 sucked, a boring and unimaginative attempt to bend Reach in to something it was never meant to be: a poor emulation of Halo 2. However, with the discussion that's arisen around v2, and the gametypes which have surfaced in various fileshares and been all but confirmed by KC as final (he's been quoted as saying that the only reason they aren't released yet is to prevent confusion over what will be played in Dallas, so we should probably expect a release soon after this weekend), my faith in how MLG Reach will pan out was firmly restored. You can find the v2 gametypes as they currently stand here (if you're interested, that's the fileshare of Ninja 0n Fire, the guy who took over from Shishka as playlist overlord, and he's been quoted as saying that he's already starting working on the MLG playlist, so hopefully we can expect it in the December update) Time for me to put on my smug hat: these are essentially the settings I've been in favour of for MLG since release day (with the exception of the NR loadout and the 150% Grav, not that I'm against either of these), though I'm far from alone in this opinion and that's also been true since day one. The important differences from default settings are: -110% Player speed -110% Jump height -150% Gravity -75% Melee damage -Sprint start (with a 5 second warm up time from spawn iirc) -DMR and Needle Rifle loadout options -Cooldown time for objective player traits removed -Alternative AA's are still positioned around the maps as pickups, though Evade has been added in since v1.1 I think that's everything, but if I've forgotten something then I'm sure someone will correct me soon enough. It's also worth mentioning that these settings are, in theory, still completely subject to change before release and aren't final until said release, but as I said, KC seems pretty confident on them from what I've seen and heard. I personally love how these settings play, but I'm interested to hear the thoughts of people on here, particularly in the context of MLG v2 vs. default, as all discussion so far has been on the MLG forums and therefore strictly from a v1.1 vs. v2 perspective.
I am very happy with V2 settings. When you say "-Sprint start (with a 5 second warm up time from spawn iirc)" do you mean unlimited sprint for 5 seconds off spawn, then the ability starts it's timer? That sounds like a creative idea for speeding up gameplay I haven't heard of. It seems like they recognized the traditional halo settings are not the best course of action for Reach. If MLG can create some amazing forge maps and eventually drop countdown. I think I might be interested in playing Reach competitively for the first time.
No, I mean having no sprint for 5 seconds after spawn, then it is enabled. Many people talked about how V1 was basically doomed to change drastically ever since it was designed, that it was an attempt to test the water with Reach and allow players in these first 2 events to adjust to the new weapon mechanics/maps etc. without having to learn a new movement mechanic as well. I can kind of see the logic in this, though I still don't think that it was entirely necessary. Either way, history now I guess. But why drop Countdown? I LOVE that map, my only problem with it being the really questionable spawning on the default version, but that's the single easiest thing for MLG to change and has already been addressed as far as I'm aware (haven't had the same awful spawns on the MLG version that I get pretty regularly in MM). Mind if I ask why you think it should be dropped? Also, the problem with Forged maps right now is that it's way too easy to induce quite bad framerate issues even with a reasonably modest amount of interlocking/object density. Certain objects like lights and any noticeable amount of glass is just out of the question, and you have to go out of your way to fight these framerate issues when Forging as opposed to just not doing anything stupid like in H3. I know the talk of a new canvas map in DLC form that's been tossed around is rather jumping the gun, but I think this single issue it's actually a pretty solid argument for getting another one. If Bungie just focused straight up on giving us a canvas map which is as functional as possible in the technical sense, and allowed aesthetics of the objects and geometry to take a real backseat where necessary, then I think MLG Forging could really be a lot easier and more varied. Sure it's not impossible to make a functional map for high level competitive play, but you have to put a lot more effort in to making it play smoothly than you should imo.
Well, I guess I probably jumped the gun on saying Countdown should be dropped, that's not necessarily true. It can be fixed. I would compare it to construct on Halo 3. If one team takes top control I can see it becoming a total stalemate until the next powerup spawns. The smallness of the hallways and corridors with all the corners to hide around also encourage camping and taking someone by surprise rather than encouraging teamwork and a good setup. It is also very easy to get away from someone at pretty much any point on the map to add to the slow gameplay.
Well, those are the things i personally love about it. That, and reflection, are two of the most sneaky-based maps. Unfortunately they both have poor support for being a team, as you said, and possibly shouldnt be included once we start getting really good maps created and implemented. Slow gameplay is not something that MLG tends to support, they are usually all about FAST movement, so i doubt that they will keep Countdown. It is based more on control and some very well built areas of the map become used for nothing other than transport to the top. New settings are pretty badass though.
Yeah, I can see your point when you put it like that. I still maintain hope for it, if not only based on the differences from Construct (aside from the massive similarities you mentioned and the fact that they both start with Co .). I think it promotes on foot travel to the top level quite a bit more than Construct (Countdown's Side Ramps vs. Open Ramp/Sword Legs on Construct), and the lifts are a bit more complex as a system. I still see your point as a potential concern though, tbh I shouldn't really say how much I love that map until I've had a decent time to adjust to it relative to v2, though I still maintain hope. I still can't love Reflection. Again, passing judgement before I see how it plays after a good while in a v2 context (roll on playlist) is a bad idea, but I just don't know. Slow is the word, and not only that but just dull in my opinion based on experiences. It's hard to be that sneaky in relation to a power position that has 3 entry points, one of which being a slow moving lift. It's a solid enough design to enjoy a decent amount of the time, but it's not in the maps that I really like from Reach (which only amounts to 4 tbh, with Reflection taking a solid 5th as 'pretty good').
Countdown could never be fixed, especially for flag. It's not a very good map. The lifts need to face away from the center and towards big door. The shuttle needs to be removed and cover added to big door instead, preferably in the form of a wall spanning between the lifts. There needs to be some way of exiting bottom mid like a quick jump or ramp up to flag rooms. The whole playspace is awkward...
I like V2 a lot. Pretty much the only changes I'd make would be to the map/gametype lineup (which is far from being finalized) and offering jetpack loadouts. For maps/gametypes, MLG has a pretty big problem. The disk does not have good enough maps to supply 7 circuit worthy gametype combinations outside of Forge World, yet they need 7 non-forge gametypes to play on splitscreen. Ideally, they'd find a way to just never play splitscreen so that they only had to worry about finding maps that didn't lag on full screen, but that's not going to happen.
Very true, you really get the sense that they're having to force out gametypes that they're not happy with (though if this is true then why they didn't include Stockpile is even more baffling, though tbh I can't think of a map that'd play it really well other than Sanc, which is of course Forged, so maybe that's why). The whole idea of on-disk Forged variants making up for a lack of default maps kinda seems a bit thinner when you get in to the nitty gritty of Forgeworld's basic flaws. I wonder if we really can hope for a more functional canvas map in the nearish future, I could see it being at least a year if one comes about at all, and how useful the Noble map pack will be for MLG purposes looks questionable right now.
I want normal melee modifier and no sprint. The reason the melee is 75% is to accommodate sprint so that people won't simple sprint up to you and punch you. But, why is spring really relevant in the first place? It doesn't add any degree of intelligence to standard competitive play. Sure, it's a rush to leap across tall buildings and land in the thick of things, but that's never the smart thing to do. The smart thing to do is stick with a friend, gun raised, and ready to fire. So, essentially sprint isn't being used which means it might as well not be there. Ironically, it's best use is off of spawn when you'd like to run away from a spawn trap, but can't. It simply doesn't increase the tactical play, which is where I think MLG should go. Let's bring out the intelligent, savvy gamers, but what's intelligent about sprint really. Press 'x' to run away.
One argument would be they can see or hear their teammate in a gunfight, sprint to a position he can support from. When you have sprint your location is more unpredictable to the enemy team. You can't sprint off spawn either as said earlier in this thread. May I ask you why you want a normal melee modifier? Melees are boring, they should be nerfed.
Melee is a tactical choice. You can finish your opponent with a melee when you know you don't have a shot and risk trading a death in the transaction. It also works when you're low on ammo and in position to be a little sneaky. It really is the only close quarters weapon you've got in MLG. It's very disorienting to use the DMR in close quarters. See, you bring up a point which is what I feel is the main reasoning behind people wanting sprint is that game play is boring. I don't find it boring or watered down at all. I still find it a rush. I don't think it should be MLG's goal to be crowd pleasers and make the game really interesting to watch. I mean, golf is a snooze yet people spend money out the ass to see it. It literally is the same thing every day, swing at a ball better than the other guy. Halo just isn't going to be some crazy acrobatic game like Unreal Tournament is. EDIT: Generally speaking, if you need to sprint to help out a teammate, you're more than likely going to put yourself in a situation where you're going to get killed as well. It's a far better choice to create an angle to help your teammate, which means if you're playing as a team correctly you don't need sprint. In fact, if you need sprint to help your teammate in the first place then you're doing it wrong. If a teammate isolates himself he will die quickly and you will to if you try to run in there sprinting.
No, the 75% melee is mainly to account for the lack of damage bleed on melees. If you're 3 shots up on someone, and you both melee, you are now on even footing despite you being shots up. With 75% melee, you're still rewarded for being shots up. It actually makes use of melee more tactical, since it's not a case of: 'oh, we're in melee range, I basically have to melee now or I'll definitely lose any melee battle that the opponent chooses to initiate. If I don't melee and continue shooting to be two shots up, they can melee and completely negate that, then I'll be behind on the melee and they'll land the second one before I can, thus winning.' It goes like this: -Player A lands three shots on player B in a short range battle, getting shots up instead of going in for the melee straight away -Player B melees player A, taking player A to no shields -Player A melees player B, also taking player B to no shields (despite being shots up, which now counts for nothing) -Player B melees player A again, winning the battle even though he didn't fire a shot and simply spammed melees (something which I gather you are against as a preferable tactic based on your reasons behind objecting to sprint) (-Even if player A is quick and manages to melee in time to kill player B, it's still a trade that player B really didn't deserve) Also, I don't really understand your position on sprint. You've said both now and in the past that it doesn't add anything thus won't be used, but also that it'll harm gameplay in the effect it has. Surely those two points are mutually exclusive? How can it be redundant and harmful to gameplay through its presence at the same time? You say in a following post that melee is a tactical choice, well so is sprint. It's a trade off between being able to cover more ground and outmanoeuvre a shooting opponent, but sacrifices your ability to shoot. Without trying to sound condescending: if you think it's so redundant and will never be the proper choice, play MLG when the playlist comes out, never use Sprint and see where it gets you. It adds a new dynamic to map movement in terms of the single player and their approach, and increases the demand on a team trying to maintain map control by introducing two variables of speed to account for when predicting and restricting opponent movement. It's inherently balanced by the lack of shooting when you're sprinting, and thus adds an extra level of skill and depth to the game (both in terms of skill and mental game), without being OP in itself. I genuinely don't get your objection to it.
I can let the melee go. Sprint, I can't let go as well, but I really don't think successful teams will be utilizing it that much. It simply doesn't factor into a team play scenario where you want to be putting shots into people. I can't really think of a situation where sprinting would be the intelligent choice other that running away from a fight or playing catch-up with a teammate. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but when you mention 'single player and their approach' it seems like you're stressing the individual and not the team. The only aspect to individual play in a team game is flanking and that's not something I'd like to see stressed. Honestly, the default maps are bad enough in trying to lockdown.
There are many situations where you're simply not in a position to put shots on people, or where the best thing you can do is get to a power position and regain map control for your team rather than chasing every 1v1 that you could initiate. You see players back down from battles where they've seen an opponent and an opponent has seen them, not just for fear of being shots down but also because it was the smart thing to do rather than fighting a battle which doesn't gain as much, often being long range battles. Sprint simply enables a dual layer dynamic to player movement, you have to take in to account two possible movement speeds when trying to keep track of an opponent that you're aware of but aren't necessarily directly fighting with at the time, which leads on to No, fair enough, tbh that's a problem I see way too much in competitive Halo attitudes to criticise you for calling it out. However, this is why I also stressed the counter point of what it does to the increased emphasis on individual potential for dynamic and unexpected map movement (which is the main basis for a very key factor in victory, be it that of the individual or the team they are a part of, ie. positioning and map control): sprint increases the emphasis on being able to outsmart an opponent as a team, with your setups, communication and awareness of player movement even with this dual speed dynamic. It makes holding a setup more demanding on the mental game and not just reliant on which team has the better shot once they gain control.
@rusty Unless you're suggesting that MLG should play on circuit maps that are all about the size of Torque, we need sprint. Anything else is too slow. That's just how Reach was made.
Zealot doesn't need sprint. Countdown doesn't need sprint, but that's getting axed anyways. The Pit wouldn't have needed sprint or been enhanced by it. Sanctuary doesn't need sprint. None of them do. I've played zealot, reflection, sanc, and countdown more than enough to know that MLG is still very fast paced and there's almost always a fight to be had and sprint for the most part has no room. I say this having played game battles pretty extensively for the past couple weeks. So, I'm not basing my general opinion on playing random scrims with my buddies, which let's be honest Ladnil and Peg. You both haven't played competitive reach at that level. It's already fast paced and really aggressive. On a side note, I wish they'd take out armor lock in arena.
Wow, a whole couple of weeks, eh? Have you considered that the people playtesting and deciding that sprint should be included have been playing competitive Reach much more and for longer than you? I wouldn't put too much faith in that superior tone of yours, dude. If experience was the sole factor in whether someone's opinion was correct in matters like this, for one it wouldn't be an opinion, and secondly I'd happily bow down to the people who say that Reach should have no AAs at all, as well as 120% speed etc, just because they've been playing more or for longer than me. I'm happy enough to argue logic around whether sprint is a good addition or not, but that was a stupid point and you know it. As for the maps, Reach plays slower as a basis than H2 or 3 did, so the point about directly transposing maps over isn't quite accurate imo. This is down to a variety of things, one being the basic slower movement speed. True this is countered in principle by the 120% speed of v1, but the shooting mechanic and different nature of the standard competitive weapons etc. also go a good way to altering how the game is played at a basic level. Even then, it isn't simply a case of using sprint to counteract a slower pace than previous games. If the only discussion here was how we can most effectively bend Reach to matching pace and gameplay of the last 2 Halo games, I think we'd all be happy enough with v1 as it is. I for one am keen to see Reach played as its own game and all that it can be in that sense, it's not just a case of using sprint to make it as fast as past games, but to add another dynamic of skill to map movement, team setups and player prediction. Your basic point seems to be that Reach doesn't need sprint, but then how is it actually making the game worse at all? If your assertion that it's next to useless is correct, 1 season's worth of play at most will demonstrate this by the dominant teams not using it or needing it to win, and it'll be removed. I do not, however, think this is likely at all. I genuinely don't see how you can't appreciate the added dynamic it adds to map movement and coordination, thus demands on both individual and team play. Also, since when is Countdown getting axed?