Well first of all, I'm not stuck inside a "no-radar box." I'm talking about the map's poor campatibility with the gametype, and the map's general mediocre design. Updraft plays the gametype very poorly with enhanced radar because of the several wrap-arounds that actually do not prevent players from doubling back and forth. Most of what you said about the map that compliments the gametype is actually not true. The Grenade Launcher stairs, the Spiker stairs, practically the entire middle area of the map is a flight of winding stairs, which encourages players to flee and chase around never-ending corners. Second of all, it's not a matter of "playing the gametype more." The only thing peculiar about the gametype is the enhanced radar. It's not like it's something anyone needs to get used to. And finally,my post wasn't "heated." I'm just stating my opinion about the map. It's not like I'm making a big deal about it.
Allow me to summarize this for you: "I disagree so I simply state you are wrong. Anything that deviates from my stance is an untruth. As I am right, your stance on the map is because of your lesser degree of skill/familiarity in playing with the gametype." I'm disappointed Chrs. Can we open a thread to move discussion of map design theory for these settings into? That way we can at least openly discuss the different theories as to what sort of map design best accommodates the settings without bogging down any of the "feature" or smackdown threads.
Honestly, I've got to agree with noooooch. While it still is a good map, there really were better maps for the contest and its gametype. Gameplay is just too sub-par to be worthy of a feature and win. Sorry Dax, but that's how I feel about this map. This is my opinion, and please don't take it like I am complaining.
In fairness, Chris's response was about as specific as the criticism in the first place. Nooch said there were wraparounds, Chris said that it doesn't really suffer from them and explained why (use of one way routes). It's hard to be more specific than that when attempting to counter criticisms which are vague themselves. I'm not trying to quash criticism itself, but if you're gonna lay in to people for sticking up for a map they think is good then try to look at things in a fair light and expect a level of specificity from the criticism itself. That wasn't feedback, it was simply a brief explanation of why he didn't like the map without actually offering enough detail to give any indication of what needs fixing. As you say, perhaps this isn't the place to go in to detailed feedback and specific discussions, and it's fair enough if people want to state that they don't like this map in a reasonable manner, that's not what I'm taking issue with. I was just pointing out that, insofar as responding, chrs worked with what he had.
If i can run away for multiple minutes at a time the map doesn't work. Which is something i can do on both of dax's maps. Neither maps are bad maps, but with enhanced radar they are both easy to keep the other player out of your line of sight while still having them on your radar.
God I'm sick of this community. Congrats on the winning map, Dax. I got on just to run around on it and it's nicely made.
You're sick of people who give negative feedback on maps? I realize now that criticizing a map in it's feature thread is more-so unwarranted, but it's all the more motivation if someone doesn't feel for the design whatsoever. Though of course, I'm surprised and overjoyed that others spoke up. And this is the post that breaks the silence, 13 hours later. Who wouldda thought it to be you?
Not taking anything personally guys, but I noticed after reading through the comments that there were some comments on the excess of escape routes. Just making sure you guys played on the final version and not the version in the Final 5 thread. The amount of movement options has been reduced pretty significantly since then.
Chrs was telling me the same thing the other day. I've yet to get the chance to check it out, let alone really even hop on Halo lately.
Ha ha that could be the resolution between Chrs and Nooo...ooch's criticisms since they both had explicitly opposite things to say about wraparounds. And this argument feels like a double-edged sword that all parties of this argument are holding. No one seems to be open to criticisms (criticisms towards the map and those criticizing the critics) and any criticism is treated as someone being butt-hurt or corrupt or bought or what have you. Those involved who support Updraft haven't put forth any specific strong points other than 'it works well with the game type.' At the same time, the people offering the criticisms haven't really pointed out any specific issues with the map. They have merely stated that they are there. I hate feeling like a mediator, but I also hate when people think that discussion and debate is unwarranted. The reason people have gotten so annoyed with this topic is because it has gone NOWHERE because NO ONE has offered a new avenue of thinking, thus why no one on any side of this debate has made concessions to the alternative side (defined: stubbornness). Naturally, from that point a debate derails into banter and insults. That's when infractions get handed out. I have nothing to offer to this debacle of a debate because I don't feel personally vested in it, but if you're going to have it, at least have it properly and respectfully. On a final note, I have to hand it to Dax for being so cool about some of the stuff said here. Everyone here seems to be taking everything personally except him.
So Shadow Viper was cool enough to walk through Updraft with me and and we debated (calmly and respectfully) our opinions of Updraft. Neither of us really budged from our original opinions, but that does not mean that it wasn't constructive. It was also difficult to replicate my poor experience with radar manipulation with the map because Shadow is a much better player than I am. We both acknowledged this. Shadow's position was that players can bounce grenades and use the Grenade Launcher that spawns in the area to force player movement, which alleviated the issue. Also, the little jump through could be used to get closer to a player (but it could also be used to get away from a player). My position was that if players we forced to come up with a counter tactic to exploiting the map then that only proves that there is something to exploit in the first place, and thus borderline exploitable. Now see, neither of us are right or wrong. It just comes down to player preference. Keep in mind that the map may yet still be exploitable, but it is tough to do so if there is a considerable skill gap. I played a 1v1 against another friend and we ran the clock out before either of us reached 15 kills because of constant map and radar manipulation. Shadow ended the game 15-3 (if I recall correctly) as I tried to exploit the map. Two very different results... Anyway, there's a lot of people responding to comments in this thread about people overreacting or getting pissed off and I just want to say that just because people disagree about things or have different views and opinions does not mean that people are being offensive or insulting. There's a huge difference between disagreement and immaturity. Gotta hand it to Dax for being so chill about this. I may not like your map, but you can definitely handle criticism like a man.
Congratulation on being selected for the tournament, and for the feature. Also, kudos for how you've reacted/not reacted to the comments in this thread. Why does this map not have an official release thread so that feedback can be given there instead of in this thread? (Nevermind...I see you just posted a thread http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-competitive-maps/140755-updraft.html)
And this is why I hate forgehub arguments. Noooooch and Organite just presented well thought out and calm statements on their opinions and backed it up. And here, you just blatantly and without reason take a dump on Dax. Next time, (as with anyone else who had done this) please add something constructive to the conversations so it can move along and not be a pit of wallowing in pointless blades. M'kay? Thanks. I still havent played the map Dax, my gold subscription is out so I wont any time soon. What I can say i'd that I feel horrible on behalf of those like Proximo who assault your map so. There is no calling for it. Maybe when I get gold again (most likely when H4 comes to be honest) we could play in forge together. your designs interest me to say the least, and your demeanor is fantastic. Here's to Dax.
But see? You offered a different way of thinking rather than "enhanced radar on this map sucks." Pointing out specifics that contribute to a side you don't particularly agree with while countering those points with your own makes your opinion a lot more credible and respectable. In the end you came to the conclusion that it's just player preference and/or a skill gap issue, which is world's different from an opinion of 'this map is horrible because it's horrible.' I agree with you 100% that there is a difference between disagreement and immaturity, but I've seen a lot of the latter in this thread.
o/ Finally someone else sees how stupid it is to argue so vehemently over how you like to play a game.
Okay, so the main point I got from this is that it's not exploitable IF the skill gap is large between two players. So what happens when similar skilled players compete on it?