I don't ever remember playing Think Twice with you or Bleuprint, and it was never posted in the Optimatch. If you played on it, then it was with the others and I wasn't in there. I didn't play the map at all from the 12th to the 28th of April. EDIT: We did look at all the feedback, and if it wasn't considered publicly in the thread, it was discussed amongst ourselves in game.. The center has been bowled, which wasn't only suggested by you. The top cover was not removed because it was necessary for gameplay. The Sniper need to be stood up to be seen, otherwise it would get grenaded and tossed down to the bottom level. Players didn't find it when this happened. The Portable Shields are so bases can contest the center. But the center is far too cramped to want to be in there for a long time, and that was by design. You aren't going to get good lines of sight with the sniper in there, so you'll have to move out of it to the side rooms. That's when Stockpile, Headhunter, Bomb, and Territories showcase themselves. The side rooms are never low traffic because combat filters towards them when the center becomes congested. Again, this was by design. And yet again, we considered all feedback tossed our way. We tested all weapons from the pro pipe to rockets before settling on the weapon set now. If you still don't like it, then that's fine by us! Designers are not going to please everybody. We strive to build for as many demographics as we can, but at the same time we aren't going to appease extremes for a certain crowd over the other. Also, contradiction much? You like the map, but now you don't, but then you do, but now you don't like the authors? Seriously, why does it bother you so much? If the map is bad, then why do you care about posting on it? Why can't you just leave us alone. You don't need to go out of your way to tell us that you hate the map.
Let's take things off a personal level now shall we? I haven't yet played this map, and it does look pretty interesting albeit very simplistic in terms of layout. I'm not a massive fan of the top layer of the middle, but I like how the bottom looks If I get a game on it any time soon, i'll give you guys some decent feedback. But for now, let's cut the crap discussions and part ways before the thread gets closed and everyone gets infracted.
I find this map to be godly in its game play however i find it lack some astetics but thats not the important part the thing to make this map so great is how you have space with its symmertricality-(new word) it eats the light of forge world so you can play in a nice arena type map and to make it with out frame rate took a long time especcialy with its smoothness i reccomend this map to be featured actually i reccomend it as one of my personal top ten maps due to your really hard work you got my download and my friends download for sure great map and great video my hopes to you for you getting this featured thank you for sharing this piece of godly forging
I just had a chance to play a 2 v 3 match on this map, and I've got to say that the hype this map has generated is an impressive feat for just being an okay forge map. This of course has lead to major criticism being delivered, as is the deal with everything in life that is over-hyped and falls short. The things I liked about the map: -Plasma Launchers were actually useful on this map (more on this below). -Aesthetics and lack of frame rate drop on my end. -Structures in each area surrounding the map were used well as both cover and decoration. -The "surprise!" jump from bottom-mid to top-mid. My gripes with the map are thus: -Bad spawns. I had two, and other people in my party reported some as well. -Centralized flow that left most of the map neglected unless a player needed to escape or quickly grab a power weapon/over-shield before returning to the middle. -Center area was too open which, compounded with the above issue, made for predictable and stale game-play. This broken LoS was the only reason the PL was at all useful. -You guys have praised yourselves on weapon placement, but having only one weapon actually be out of the way from the initial spawns is not good placement in my opinion. Each team got their launcher, ran for sniper, and then came across the hammer/over-shield later (only when they needed to escape the middle). Rinse, lather, repeat for 50 kills. Bleh. One last note: Your off-handed, non-nonchalant way of bragging about knowing a Bungie employee who helped publicize the map and also having the capability to "play-test over 100 times," is not impressing anyone. For having so many play-tests conducted, there are more major flaws (ones that are easily fixed nonetheless) in it than there are in maps that only get 10-15 play-tests before release.
wow, genuine quality right here, even aesthetically, which by right proves to even better gameplay. Im gettin this right now
@masterhughes: Are you serious? Did you really just say that aesthetic quality proves a map will have better game-play? I hope this is not the opinion of most forgers...
I managed to get a game on this a while back after lurking the thread for ages waiting for someone to direct me to where to find it. Well I got it and played it in a 3v3. Personally, I believe this map does not live up to all the hype you have built around it. The only thing I found to be massively true was that it wasn't the sea of gray most forge maps have nowadays. It never hurt my eyes after playing it for a while and I could actually distinguish different rooms on the map. Aesthetically, it is great, however the map lacks in gameplay. Like some of the other posters here, I too witnessed a massive amount of gameplay centered around the middle area of the map. Everytime someone spawned they made a dash for the center to join in the action, and only wandered about if they took a severe beating from those in the center numerous times. This was the only time anyone, including myself looked around the rest of the map. I will, if any of my friends play Reach anymore, try some objective on this map and get back to you on the gameplay of that. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Hopefully this will merge but yeah... Aesthetics can contribute to gameplay but do remember Gameplay>Aesthetics please.
I believe what masterhughes is trying to say is that he found the gameplay good, and the good aesthetics contributed to the gameplay, hence improving the experience. I agree with the hype thing...but that honestly mostly occurred on its own. The combination of the rep of two of the forgers and previous publicised maps (Affinity, Jackal Creek) built up to this. Also, the infamous Public Beta was not something new, tbh, a public beta had been submitted for Affinity, but was denied.
False. This map was shoved so far down everyones throat, it's just a wonder we didn't die from asphyxiation. It has literally nothing to do with who forged it, but more or less that you couldn't go to a forge-related website and not find something about this maps "beta" published. Honestly, what gives any of the creators the oversized ego to go around thinking their map is so special that it can just be published on the Bungie front page? Godly can take most of the credit there, but I digress. Oh, by the way, don't get the idea that I came in here just to rant about how pathetic your advertising methods are. I actually have brought a review with me. With all the hype that was created for this map, I think I speak for everyone when I say we were expecting something huge, something revolutionary. And just like the release of Homefront or Black Ops, we were all let down. I agree 100% with Schnitzel (not so much his attitude, but literally everything he said about the map) in the sense that he covered everything that's wrong with the map. You say it's not grey, fact is, it's just as grey if not more grey than most other maps I download. What happened with the weapon layout? Are rockets and grenade launchers too mainstream? The neutral sniper worked out fairly well, but the plasma launcher and the hammer were just flat out useless considering the map, outside the middle area, are just long hallways. To your credit, the flow in the middle hallways is quite spectacular and something that has never really been done before. So, kudos for that. But ultimately, the great player movement of the middle area can't save the rest of the maps overly-simple design. Hopefully, you can take the uniqueness and great flow of the center area and implement it into a more solid and exciting design because as of right now, this map just doesn't have any re-playability for me.
Well, I've been one of the people drowned out in the testing session with this map. No idea why I'm commenting here instead of one of the other ten forge forums this was posted and where I am better known, except, good lord, I agree with the post above me. This map was rushed to the Cartographers without respecting the gauntlet that the rest of the maps in the forging community as a whole have to run, and I sincerely hope that it suffers for that. My Critique: 1. Gray - I've never heard more boasting about color on a gray, gray, gray map. It is literally surrounded by coliseum walls in an attempt to avoid frame-rate lag. That's about as gray as you can get. 2. Framerate - guess what, boys! It's still there. As Bleu and I have pointed out (and Schnitz, but why would you listen to him?) there is framerate along the high passage of this map because of the covenant shields, and along the outside where you get light reflections off of the pyramids. 3. Weapon Set - I'm not sure where the idea for plasma launchers was incepted, but in a map that has a ton of sharp corners, it just simply plays badly. 4. Design - interesting use of the pyramids. Even with that, it's still a mediocre map design. It's basically a four-base, and as balanced as they are, it's still a boring four-base. I got it on the other ten forums: You guys found a new way to use a piece and designed a map around that concept. That's great. I'm happy to see the pyramid used in a different way. That doesn't make this map any better than quite a few maps released every month. Please quit the hype, and next time, respect the process.
I appreciate all the constructive comments in the thread, and I myself have become extremely humbled (even more-so than before) by them. I will take it to heart and remember it for the future. I cannot say the same about my colleague who seems to be indirectly tearing the map down due to a reputation (just or not) that proceeds him. I'd like for this thread to be locked, as everything that needed to be said already has and at this point it can only degenerate from here. I believe the map has been an example for not only how to take risks, but also for how to completely fail. Don't rush, don't post until it's finished, and don't send it to a website like Forgehub where the majority of the comments seem to stem some misplaced hostility towards a certain person. EDIT: At least I got to keep my covenant crates
When he tears down other maps that are better than his own, and promotes his own everywhere, it's difficult to see how that hostility isn't warranted. I can name twenty people who's matchmaking chances he has ruined and those are just the ones that I know personally. Some of the maps that they were submitting were worse that Think Twice, but quite a few of them were better. When a group of talented forgers disrespects the process, there is backlash. I'm not sure why this wasn't seen coming. Again, I've mentioned these problems to all four of you multiple times, and I've been shutdown, ignored, and yelled at. The map has frame-rate issues. The map has a problematic weapon set. The map has a new take on one piece, and the design suffers because so much attention is focused on that one aesthetic detail of the map. Please at least make a farcial attempt at fixing them. Until you do, I see no reason why I should stop critiquing the map.
I cannot speak for GodlyPerfection, and him and I have been disagreeing with each other since we built the map. Any comments regarding its publicity would be better to be taken up with him. I only wanted to post a few threads, just as I do for every map that I make. If there is framerate drop, then that's something the others will fix for later versions. I didn't work on the map for the last 2 weeks of April, and to be quite frank I'm glad. If I had involved myself any further, I would not be able to see the issues you are pointing out. I've "thought twice" about removing myself from the project due to conflicting views. I worried that the map was artificially controlling the score of the game, and I worried that combat was too focused on the center. I regret that I didn't have more confidence to confront the others and propose changes, but it is what it is and now we pay the price. I never had this much flak from Jackal Creek, and that map has so many problems.
Well I won't speak for others but know that my friends and I have already played plenty of games on this map and love the way it plays. The middle hallways is made brilliant by the ability to drop down the sides. I for one will look forward to any work you do and hope the few parasitic critics of this site won't get you down. Remember the thing that matters is that you love your map and not that others do. I hope you take pride in the map you built and realize the achievement that it is. "Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people! Your own work, not any possible object of your charity. I'll be glad if men who need it find a better method of living in the house I built, but that's not the motive of my work, nor my reason, nor my reward! My reward, my purpose, my life, is the work itself - my work done my way! Nothing else matters to me!" -The Fountainhead
Sounds to me like this GP guy is the George Lucas of Forge. To be afraid of sharing your opinion with someone you are co-forging with stems from no fault of your own, but from the player(s) who shoot you down and tell you they know what's best at all times. This map is going to be the Jar-Jar Binks of their "forging career." Jackal Creek wasn't shoved down people's throats like this map has been, so that's your reason for the backlash right there. Do you think the team behind this map will make the changes people are complaining about over and over? Doubtful. They believe this to be some sort of "achievement" in forging, when really it's just another map with it's own set of problems and a pretty center-piece.
I played the map yesterday, and I must say the gameplay was quite poor. The map looks good, but that could possibly be the apex of all good things I can say. First, the map was too symmetric. It just so happened that me and another player I was against happened to do the exact same things just on opposite sides of the map. We spawn in the same spots at the same times, picked up the same weapons, tied to kill eachother and even sometimes just moving at the same time in the same hallways. Second, there is not enough variety in the map. The map is basically one octagonal hallway with two hallways crossing in the middle. This layout lead to everything in the ****in game happening in the middle of the map. Thirdly, gameplay was extremely repetitive it was like playing a first person shooter version of assassins creed one. I can probably blame the layout for this problem. Those are just a few problems I had with the map. There were some good things though: - no lag - good healthpack placement - map looks great - weapon placement works well
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this statement. i didn't feel as though this map was shoved down my throat at all. It was posted I saw the author and picture and downloaded. I haven't been forced to download this at all. Where are you pulling that from? Also the middle is a lot more than 'pretty.' while the action is pulled towards the middle, the 'centerpiece' proves to be very interesting when you consider you can drop down in the middle of a gunfight. While 4v4 could get a little repetitious I suppose, when playing with 8v8 it proves to be a very enjoyable experience. When you win a fight on the top, drop down to help a teammate quick and then run to the side to help another... that to me is great flow and something you don't normally see in symmetrical maps of this kind.
Much like Jackal Creek, I never really understood the hype of this map. For reasons mentioned above, this map passes off as an average, regular, mediocre map with some interesting, nice aesthetics. It could defiintely see some improvement. Here are some problems I had: -Bland design, while the center structure and the use of the forge pallete items were implimented into the map nicely, the rest of the map suffers, and seems as if it was abandoned, and, dare I say, unfinished. -Through the custom games every time, and I mean every time, the gameplay would draw towards the center. The outside hallway areas were merely used as spawn points, and nothing else. -Long lines of sight. Both the upper and lower levels of the center structure have lomg line of sights, which then turns into a nade DMR fest in the center of the map. The symmetrical Needler weapon placement just adds more chaos in the heat of things. -I'm sure the design was initially meant for people to be able to drop to the lower levels from top levels, but this feature adds confusing, and sometimes, frustrating moments in the game. Several times I was knocked downwards, not knowing who did it, and not knowing how, I got there. -Not enough cover. The only cover in the center area was the small centerpice, and that was easily surpassable. As mentioned above, this just lead to a grenade spamming, DMR fest. Both the lower, and top levels. -Not enough variey in gameplay. As said before, most of the action and encounters happen towards the center, making the map flow broken. Throughout the games I played, I rarely ran into, nor myself, used the outside areas. -The map itself, aside from the center, looks bland, dull, and boring. Everythind on the outside is made up of simple forge pallete items, such as coliseum walls, and as said before, seems like it was unfinished, and might I say rushed? From looking from the center to the outside, it seems like you were walking to and fro two different maps. -On a more personal concern, I'm not really fond of the map name. I'm sure it has some metaphoric meaning to it, but I woul've namned it something else. While not the biggest component to a map, the map name and description are the most important component to people downloaded your maps in your File Share. Does this map deserve it praise? Does the two predecessors deserve their praise? That's up for debate. But, I posted here to give constructive criticism, and that is that this map needs work. I see it as an average map, but it definitely has potentential. I have always, always have taken constructive criticism into consideration, and hence doing so, several of my maps play, look, and feel a lot better than the first versions. A perfect example is Paragon II, in which I made several aesthetic and gameplay changes. If it wasn't for a select handful of people, and I sincerely thank you for helping me, several of my maps wouldn't have improved upon the first beta, and even full versions. I could go on and one, but that's my piece.
I never said anyone was forced to download it. It was just shoved in people's faces on every site that deals with forging or halo reach while touting itself as "innovative" and game-changing. Being able to drop down a level and continue a fight is not special, and is nothing new to Halo maps. And 8v8 on this map? Are you kidding me? That'd be the ultimate cluster-****. The only reason to go anywhere besides the center is to run away from enemies- not great flow. Flow stems from overall movement that isn't forced by the actions of the enemy team, but rather it is natural paths of action that the map gently leads you through. Sure, the map is good, but you seem to think it's the ****ing ****. There's a reason why just about everyone is giving it constant criticism- it needs it. You'll notice that everyone is saying the same few things as well, but it is doubtful they will be fixed. It is not nearly as polished and complete as you make it out to be. This map should still be in the testing phase, because despite "100 playtests," it still plays like a map that the creator(s) refused to alter unless they thought of it first. Sure, you ought to make maps for yourself, but every good forger truly makes their maps for the players to enjoy. Not too many people seem to be enjoying it in it's current state besides you and a handful of others- mostly people (read: friends) who appear to have signed up for this site just to talk about how great this map supposedly is.
At first I agreed with people complaining about the overpublicity, but now it's getting out of hand! Lock this thread before people keep taking it to a personal level and let it sink into the depths of the Custom Content Section!