Thanks for the feedback. Think Twice was meant to be a very simple map built around the dynamic of the center. We have a more complex and intricate map in the works and it will be undergoing a much longer and thorough development process than Think Twice. It will also feature more authors.
I think you may be confusing simplicity and dullness. I cannot see any dull features throughout themap. The foging technique is very unique and (sometimes)radical, but the layout of the map overall is very simple. I don't mean that at all in a bad way, to the contrary, I think simplicity is a key factor to the flow of a map! Each corner room gives you three halways to choose from, based on what gametype you are playing and where the focus of the battle is, you can easily strategize accordingly. Each choice has it's own incentives and risks, so the player has to decide which option is the most desireable. Far from a dull experinece. Although I did not get to play any objective games on the map, I played quite a few rounds of slayer and was thuroughly impressed with the balance of the map, though I felt the middle was often times too distracting to the point that I would go running through it just for the hell of it! Again, nit necessarily a bad thing, but it was kind of like a bug zapper effect, lol. I will certainly DL this map and keep it in my local for quite some time, Very enjoyable experience and I look forwrd to hearing more about V2!
That's one big thing about getting your map into matchmaking. The way most people think is "Well, if my map is good enough to get into matchmaking, it obviously does not need further updates". Or worse, they get all egotistical when you suggest that their map does need updates. Breakpoint, despite not having the best forge pallette, has some hidden potential within it. You'd have to use the environment to your advantage in order to create a map, however. As for Tempest, if you can find a way to work around the environment, you could easily create an amazing map. It takes extra careful patience to forge on the ground with this map. You just have to find the right spot for your map to make it work effectively. After seeing what you did with Jackal Creek awhile ago, I'd like to see what you can do with spiritual successors of any one of these maps in the future - Lockout, Countdown, Zanzibar, High Ground, Longest, Isolation, Turf, Prisoner, Ivory Tower, Chiron TL-34, Relic, Terminal, Gemini, Burial Mounds, Uplift, Gephyrophobia (Pretty much exactly the same as Narrows). Most of the maps I suggested to you aren't very popular and rarely get spiritual successors, but they would make good forge projects if you were to create them. Personally, I think Terminal was the absolute best BTB map ever in any Halo, but it never got the attention it deserved and so became unknown to many people. Only the biggest of Halo 2 veterans still remember how great that map was. As for Uplift, it's a Halo 2 Vista exclusive, so you probably would not remember it anyways. [br][/br]Edited by merge: More authors=more creative ideas and more creative ideas=better map. Not to mention more productivity. I look forward to that project, whatever it may be. The only thing I didn't like, at least in some respects, about this map is that it was so simple. I didn't feel the need to mention it though, since it was a good map despite that. It's a good thing in that it is easy for a newer player to learn, but it's a bad thing in that it gets very boring and repetitive after having played it many times.
Reread my post. That was the conclusion that I initially came to, but after some thought, I realized quite a bit more.
Ehh... I played this map a while ago and was pretty unimpressed. The aesthetics of the center are cool, but other than that the map seemed extremely generic. It was well balanced, and even well forged, but honestly wasn't at all fun to play on for me.
Thanks for the feedback, Psychoduck. Although the layout is very generic and unoriginal, it's what we've done balance-wise and with the center that make it a different and unique experience. If at that point a player is still craving more, the unfortunate reality that we must except is that it just simply isn't possible for this design. We built not only within the limitations of forge, but also the limitations of a cohesive palette and matchmaking standards. It would have been difficult to build a matchmaking-suitable version without either losing the feel of the map or turning it into a different one. At the end of the day, we think of Think Twice as an experiment. We tested how fast we can build and test a map, how the community would receive advertisement and exposure, and how we could motivate ourselves to complete it on schedule. Think of the map as a testing ground for future ones, much like ODST was considered an experiment to test new ideas for Reach. We not only learned a lot about the exposure part of forging, but we also learned much more about building the maps as well. We're using our newfound knowledge on a more complex, balanced, and inspiring design that will hopefully appeal to a wider demographic of players. Thanks again!
As you know I have the utmost respect for you as a forger, and love your work, I've personally come to you for advice and appreciate all feedback you've given my maps. However, I'd like to say something about what you just said. I understand the want to create Matchmaking-standard maps. But I would really love to see you guys go off the deep end and take a chance on making a map that is completely innovative. I think the skill your collaboration has could come up with something that we have never seen before and makes all of our jaws drop. While the maps you guys produce are of the highest standard, none of them truly make us rethink what a map can be. I for one would love to see you make a map that would make me rethink the possibilities of matchmaking.
Hey it's this map. I played a game on this just last night and at first I was being dominated by a try hard. Once I figure out how to use the center structure as cover, moving up and down through the sides, I was finally able to keep up. I ended up losing but I loved the fact that I was actually able to use the map's design to help me during combat in a diffent way than usual. Great job guy, can't wait for your next map.
I must say that playtesting this map was amazing fun and to some extent inspiring! The pieces were used cleverly and the layout is simple, which is something more cartographers need to think about. It's aesthetically unique and clean, which gives a sense of immersion which really adds to the experience. I look forward to seeing more from you guys, and I hope to see this in matchmaking! Oh, and Hammer + Jetpack + Man cannon = some crazy/zany kills!
Having played multiple games on this map I can say without the slightest hesitation that it is an astonishing forge creation. Gameplay on this map is as smooth as a dolphins beak. It ebbs and flows like an organic entity. Whether it be Stockpile, CTF, KOTH or just plain old Team Slayer, this map engenders gameplay that is both competitive and super-duper-fun. There is an inherent balance between form and function in this map that many could learn from. I happen to think that the core design concept is pretty unique, regardless of what others say. The dull greys which characterize so many forge creations are replaced with a vibrant color-coded environment, making navigation and coordination effortless which in turn engenders more enjoyable games. Though I agree with others that these guys are capable of much more, I salute them here and now for their efforts in creating this work of art which I will personally be playing games on for a very long time to come. Well done guys. And keep going.
Thanks for your feedback. The platform Ys joined with the platform XXL's is what started the map. When the four of us build, we try to build within aesthetics. If the textures and colors of one piece don't match with another, we usually don't join them. This is called "cohesion" and it's one of the principles we followed while we built Think Twice. That's why it doesn't look as grey or dull as other maps. I'm actually quite surprised that this map managed to work out for many gametypes, including 1v1s. I heard issues about CTF, but somebody countered it excellently by saying that you actually need defense to play it our CTF will go by quickly. We're definitely capable of much more, and soon enough you'll be able to witness the full power of level design. Simplicity was our goal here, but that's just the tip of the iceberg; we're just getting started. Thanks again for your support everybody.
That's easy enough. Cover yourself with animal dung, and you get to do all of that. Now, to put this out there: Think Twice has a very simple deisgn on a macro level. But on a micro level, the central hallways offer dynamic and complex manoeuvres which are simply unseen in other Halo maps. It displays incredible innovation and originality in this central aspect. In my humble opinion, I feel that this is what the title refers to: don't look at the simple, top-down layout but think again and look at the details. There is, quite honestly, no other map like it.
No, its simply another uninspiring map in a sea of uninspiring maps. Bland aesthetics, gray colors, gimicky middle section, and poorly LoS and room design. There are good maps and bad maps out there. Some are simple good maps for fun casual games, some for high end competitive games. This map seems to have aimed for a niche between the two and falls flat. Its a shame that GP has two cartographers under his thumb and got this B-lined into MM consideration. Frankly, this is one of the most unenjoyably maps I've played... And I've played a lot of maps. :/ Now Goat and all you RP sycophants, seriously, drop the thread bumping antics. Every comment doesn't warrant an immediate response. You're only responding so promptly to keep the map afloat on the forum. Let it drown in the sea of mediocrity where it belongs.
I agree. It is completely and totally wrong to go around bumping a map for absolutely no reason, every few minutes. And, I know, responding in the short time that I had earlier is sooo unacceptable. Three days is really too short a time to do that. If I lived ~2000 years ago, I would've said to Jesus, "You know, maybe you should wait a couple more of days before resurrecting. It might be a little too soon." I'm responding now promptly because, well two reasons. One, a 'bump' now makes no difference. Two, and more significantly, you possess a gross lack of any ability to check timestamps. My post was in relevance to the preceding discussion of how simple Think Twice appears to be. Make no mistake about this: I enjoy the map. Does that make my opinion any less valid? And, many of the people you describe as 'sycophants' are my friends. If you could see the amount of hair pulling and arguments that went over the measly description, I would be surprised if anybody could call them 'sycophants.' Stop being so ridiculous, really.
SecretSchnitzel... seriously??? I know that there are petty politics between you and the RP boys, but seriously??? bland and grey??? seriously?? Everyone has an opinion of course. If you described it as 'not your style' or even 'average, then fair enough...that's your opinion. But to say 'this is one of the most unenjoyably maps I've played'.... seriously????? Such comments are in no way shape or form influenced by your recent banning from RP I assume? You're kind of coming across as rather bitter, jealous, and a tiny little bit foolish. I'm sure you are NOT any of these things, but just saying: that's how you are coming across. I don't understand why anyone meeting with success in the forging community ends up with a small party of haters. If these guys were getting a million bucks and a playboy lifestyle from thier efforts, i could understand it, but this is about people playing with big boys lego trying to make fun maps for people to play a pretend shooting game on.
Okay, maybe my saying its one of the most unenjoyable maps I've played is a bit much... But the blatant over hyping of an average map has completely killed any care in the world I've had for it. I enjoyed it the first time I played it with godly and co, but then the publicity push by the members of RP killed it. Its one thing to post your map and let others make their judgment, its something else to sell it as some sort of pinnacle of map design when it obviously is not. However, the map is GRAY. Yes, I know forge has limitations in regards to color, but there are plenty of pieces and techniques forgers can utilize to over come it. This map is lacking in that field... There are some pieces that show color, but now much at that. The map does NOT promote player orientation very well at all. As for my sycophant bit... Here's the definition from dictionary.com: Sycophant - noun: a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite. Most forgers at RP DO fit that description. Anything that godly and his inner circle forge, whether it is good or bad, immediately gets unanimous and and persistent praise from the community as being some outstanding design that outclasses all others. It really is just kissing ass. Undue praise is undue. The praise a lot of these maps get is over the top and ridiculous. The bumping isn't bad here, but after the Optimatch thread (which was bumpalicious) I really can't help but call it out here. Furthermore, there's a thread at RP that is sticked that calls for bumping of maps in various communities by RP members. I mean, come on! As for my "banning" at RP, thats simply godly censoring a voice of opposition. Godly is an unforgiving egotist that can not handle criticism. Thats why he refused to post his map Affinity at MLG for their playlist submission as he KNOWS it would not get praised. It wouldn't get trashed as its not a bad map, but it most certainly would not receive praise of any kind. Furthermore, his poor attitude (yes this pot is calling the kettle black) probably has a lot to do with his ban from other communities as well. As for haters hating on successful maps, simply not the case. Its a matter of voicing disagreement in regards to maps being placed on a pedestal when there are better maps out there that go unnoticed. Of course a lot of it has to do with these other forgers not shamelessly promoting their maps like godly... But point is, there are BETTER maps. The real issue I take is that godly is an incessant egotist of unrivaled dimension. He struck me as a nice and well mannered person when I first started playing with him, but it did not take long for me to recoil in disgust at what a poor individual he is. I've been a lot of places in life, met a lot of people, game with a wide variety of people, but godly is by far one of the most unpleasant people I've encountered. Perhaps if he humbled himself a bit he'd be more pleasant.
So in summary.... The map is not bad but you dislike one of the authors. NlBBLESedit: Either the spam ends or the thread does. Continue spitting useless comments out of your mouths and infractions are going to smack you upside your face. Final warning.
Look, we get that you do not like the map. You've made it blatantly obvious by posting it in every single location that the map has been posted. You don't need to continue to tell us, because now it's bordering on harrassment. Instead of actually offering constructive advice during its testing, you and many others took the "I've seen better" approach and now you're wasting everyone's time. We already know there are better map designs out there. As I've said before, this wasn't meant to be the next sliced bread. It was meant to be an example to other forgers out there. Whether or not it stands the test of time is irrelevant. As many consider ODST as an experiment for Reach, we consider this as the same. We not only tested out new ways to collaborate and design, but we also improved each other as designers. And of course, we learned from our mistakes. In the future, we will not be going about things this way. We'll also be enlisting the help of more testers and building for a wider demographic. Contrary to your belief, we are good Forgers and we will build good maps for Matchmaking. You can either support us, or you can continue to play on Pinnacle and Paradiso and rage at the terrible map design. Now please--refrain from commenting on the map anymore before you get yourself in trouble.
Goat, when I played it the first time with you I praised parts of it and offered suggestions for other parts. Even in the optimatch thread I offered some advice. You shot down EVERYTHING with weak excuses and criticisms of myself and the advice offered. Don't even think to pull that card with me bud because your flat out wrong. And considering the only one of my friends who joined me in the testing of the map was Bleuprint, your grossly mistaken on the accusation of "I've seen better" being the only feed back given then. Bleuprint is probably one of the most mature and responsible acting individuals I know on xbl or any forge community and I know for a fact he would NEVER say that as the only feed back. In fact, if memory serves me correct, Bleu's only feed back was about game play flowing towards the center of the map too much as opposed to along the outsides and that he had some dropped frames while scoped in with the DMR looking across top mid and strafing back and forth (where his LoS was interuprted by the Covy shields). Further more, his comments got shouted down (almost literally) by you guys. No, I don't like the map. I said it had potential when I played it with you guys if certain issues were addressed, but they never were. I gave it fair chance, but you gave me none. I've addressed the issues the map has with you, but you're beyond reproach and unacceptable of legitimate feed back. Perhaps if you had taken a second and handled criticism maturely from the start we would not be at this current impasse.