Most of you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. You join a custom zombies game, and you are the infected. You meander about Last Resort until you conclude that the humans are hiding in the defense's base. You step in and are hit with a laser, two rockets launchers, four shotguns, two frags, and friggin' flamethrower. You die. You respawn. You repeat. Balance has disappeared from Forged maps (of course, I'm not including Forge Hub featured map, duh). I'm so sick of being either destroyed as the zombie or having no challenge as the human. But wait, there's more! This horrible display of poor Forging is not limited to Infection: one-sided CTF games where the offense might as well be storming Normandy again, Oddball matches where there are hundreds of secret hiding spots that no one else can get to, FFAs in which there are more overshields than players...It's outrageous! The problem lies in the creator, the Forger himself. He (or she, to be politically correct) has a warped sense of fun; this is because he is only thinking of fun in the sense that pertains to himself. If it's fun for him, it's fun for everyone. Ahem...WRONG! Fun can't really be defined, but I can sure as heck guarantee you it isn't 15 humans raping one zombie over and over and over. It gets boring for both of them. No, fun is when everybody can't wait to play that one map again. It's when the game ends 50-49, and seven out of eight of the players save films from the game. Nobody remembers when you win a CTF game 9-2. What's the fun in that? Imagine if the last level in Halo:CE played out like most of the maps nowadays. Depending on which "team" you were on, you would either get destroyed by seven thousand flood combat forms, or you would be escorted to the exit via limo with a free champagne bar. There's no fun in either (albeit, champagne is always nice, just not memorable)! Balance is the key to fun. When everybody that plays the game comes away aching to play again, you've created a good map. Some simple ideas: If you give one team a rocket launcher two inches from their base, do the same for the other, or at least give them a weapon of comparable power. Or, better yet, put on rocket launcher in the middle of the map, so that everyone has a fair chance. Still better, place snipers on the sides, so that there's an anti-rocket. Then place shotguns somewhere so that snipers can be taken down. Balance is a beautiful cycle in which no one person, weapon, or area can always beat another. The fun lies in the game's ability to fluctuate and change; nobody wants to play a map in which the outcome can be completely predicted from the get-go. Eliminate spawn-camping. I know, this is hard, and the people who do it deserve to burn in hell. But there are ways around it. First, have lots of spawns. I'm talking tons. You can't really have to many...I mean, the worst that could come from too many spawns would be running out of cash. Don't worry about it...it's worth it. Also, put three to four spawns (with a low to medium chance of being spawned there) in a place that has cover from at least two sides. Remember how much you hate spawning on the beach in Last Resort, only be sniped by three people? If you were to spawn in the stairwell behind that tower, life would be much more tolerable. Basically, more is better here. Edit as of 12/07/2007: AZN commented that no more than sixteen is really necessary. You can have more, of course, but the key is really to have six or seven good spawns per team, with two safe ones on lower priorities. The point is to have spawning not be the most dangerous thing in the game, but rather going out and killing people. Spawns should not be thrilling...I'm sorry. They ought to be safe for at least a short moment. Invulnerability for a brief time is also a great respawn trait. Whatever way you choose, don't make coming back to life the most challenging part about your game! Also, AZN made a good point: study Bungie's spawn points. Heck, study everything that Bungie did with their map (especially weapon placement). They are making millions off of a well-made game. You can't make anything of it, but you can at least create good maps. Take a long look, and study intently the way things work. You'll be surprised by how much better your maps will work after understanding theirs! Consider the opposing team. If you make a map intending to only play on the offense the whole time, I can guarantee you anyone who plays on defense will hate the map. You have to take all sides into account. Like I said earlier, have checks and balances. If you give one team an active camo, consider giving the other team an overshield. If one team gets a tank, give the other a wraith, or a tank, or even rockets. Just make it so that everyone has a chance, regardless of whether you start as the human or the zombie, offense or defense, etc. Listen, for goodness' sake, listen to others' advice. If you test (you are testing your maps, right?) a map and everyone complains about the silly amount of snipers, take some of the snipers out. Then test more, and then listen more. Newsflash: the people who play your games know best. Period. Even bigger newsflash: people don't complain when they're having tons of fun. I've lost games by twenty points and never even thought of complaining because the map and gametype were just so much fun. I laughed so hard I couldn't see the score. The point is this: if you think you are above advice, suggestions, complaints, and scorn, then you have a long way to go before becoming a good Forger. Really good Forgers look for what their audience wants, develops a game off that desire, and then perfects the map until it's getting rave reviews and being featured on Bungie.net. Edit as of 12/07/2007: As AZN has pointed out, please use common sense in this one. If someone says that "the map is boring and needs eleven more rockets launchers," kindly dismiss them. Find a select group of intelligent Forgers who understand good maps, and ask their opinion instead. May I suggest the Guilders, for instance? I'm sorry, but this will take time. Lots and lots of time. The best maps were not blinked into existence, they were taken through rigorous testing, changing, theorizing, and so on. You have to be willing to find the balance between hard and too hard, fun and too easy. If you do, I can guarantee people will enjoy your map (provided it has something else to offer, like originality, creativity, excitement, donuts, something...). Well, I'm done ranting. Key points to recall and hopefully apply: Keep the cycle of balance going (sniper beats assault rifle, shotgun beats sniper, sticky beats shotgun, shield door beats sticky, melee beats shield door, laser beats melee, sniper beats laser, shotgun beats sniper, sticky....). Lots o' spawns prevents lots o' camping. If camping, then suck. Nice, simple rule. See the map from both sides. Everyone wants to have fun, not just the humans or just the defense. TEST YOUR MAPS! Most importantly of all, listen to (competent) others. Cheers to all, and I look forward to all the balanced, fun maps that will be released in the near future! -Lance001, Wannabe Thinker
I call cheers to the knowledgeable and very valuable tester of maps... Lance001. He thinks the way I think... congrats. A few things though. When someone tells you to fix something about your map, make sure what they are suggesting is warranted. I don't know how many people I see that say "Zombies should be super fast and jump high, cuz that's how they always are..." ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!? I don't remember zombies being fast, and the only reason they are not slow is because of game balance. Just make sure you weigh the advice people are trying to give you. You don't really need lots of spawns... I put a minimum 16 (for players), and then I add a few more for good measure. You don't need lots of spawns if you have good placement of spawns. Or you could add invulnerability for 3 seconds when you spawn (which you will notice is a common trend in my gametypes). Another thing... take the time to study how bungie sets up their spawns. How many of you have actually taken the time to study a regular non-changed map. Learn from what is considered par. Good thread Lance...
Hah, I woudn't say valuable...I just kinda sit here and ramble about Utopian worlds where Forgers make only good maps... Oh, and I edited my original post to include additional suggestions you gave.
Hah, welcome to the fray, Titmar. If you haven't looked around, I strongly suggest the Official Hub Releases forum! Enjoy your stay, and I hope that you learn a ton (and maybe even teach us some, too)! ;D
Word. I've had a few ideas for maps but I've never had a group of people that are serious about Forge enough to help test and play and give feedback to each other, so i'm pretty happy about this forum. Hoping to possibly get in on the Customs Party tonight, if I can maybe get an invite or send someone a friend request? GT: TITMAR Peace.
You're welcome to post you gamertag in the Customs Games thread, but there's a slime chance you'll make it in. There's currently a large waitlist, probably because we rock so much (not that we are proud, or anything)...but go ahead and give them your name, and you'll be put on a list. Hopefully we'll get to see you tonight! Oh, and if you're looking for testers, check out the two sticked testers threads!
Welcome Titmar... if you didn't know I'm one of the 6 guilders... I'm the more knowledgeable guy that goes out and helps people make stuff work while teaching them tricks here and there. You will normally find a helpful tip in over 75% of my posts. I hang out mostly here on the Forge Discussion section. Stay tuned... Note: I also hang in the sub section for Forging 101.
Wow, what a great write up on this subject. The spawn placement is crucial to a good map, but one thing you didn't touch on is the direction of the spawn. You would think this isn't a big deal but I've joined many games where I become a zombie, then I spawn facing a wall or facing towards the beach instead of the base. Anyway, great thread. =D Belongs in Forging 101 imo (Or maybe a higher class like AP Forging Psychology lol)
If more people read this before they made maps, then we're one step closer to your utopia... great post.
Wow.. I don't want to go into spawning stuff again... Fbu if you read around the Forge Discussion section you will find many a topic on spawn placement, direction, symmetry, amount, etc... They are EVERYWHERE... Maybe I'll just take everything I've said and make it into a Spawn Placement Guide. Cuz that Forging 101 doesn't even scratch the surface on it.
The 101 seriously doesn't get near to what you could say, you could go all the way into the intricate game design concepts and theories.
And if you give your humans BR's and snipers and every weapon known to man (and several known to dolphins), a giant base, and 3 turrets, please give the zombies a little cover, I see way to many open area's, and the zombies are 1 hit kills. Gets verrrry frustrating. Oh and check out FH Tester Guild for testers.
They are useful for most people, who don't/won't want to read an essay on the subject and just want to get the general concept in their mind. I think sub-sections for more information, good practice and workarounds of common problems associated with each topic would be very useful and good for the site though. I may put this to the other guilders but this weekend alot of us are quite busy, so it may not happen too soon.
Just as a thought, Shock...what do you think about having a sub-section for the philosophy behind Forging? As a totally incompetent Forger who can only hope to think things through rather than act, I'd love to see (and add to) a forum in which people could discuss the whys (why does this game suck? Why does _____ work do darn well?) rather than the whats (what weapon here? Infection or slayer?). That way, people who want to understand the innate nature of Forging could have a place to find relevant threads on such knowledge. Just an idea, anyhoo...
Interesting... My initial thought is that this would be something that you would want to set up as a discussion in the premium section..? I know it would be a good thing to have available to everyone on the site as soon as they join, but if you want it to be a thread people post their experienced views in, you will have to consider how you would go about it. Hm. I'm all for that sort of material being on the site though, and it's just your thing to get involved in.
Well, I'd personally like to contribute to a board in which I (and others who share the same philosophy of Forge-thoughts) could create fairly regular "Forging 101" type threads. I just feel like this is one of the only ways I can contribute; with college and my inability to Forge, I can't really help any other way. I'm willing to take on the responsibility of leading up that sort of project, but I just wanted to see if you and the other Guilders think it a worthy cause. Personally, I think the ideas behind Forging and its maps are just as important as the Forging itself, but, obviously, I'm biased. Would it be possible for me to submit posts, have someone post them in a locked thread, kind of like the 101 section? That way, only admins could post, therefore keeping it to experience knowledge only. What do you think? In short: I'd like this to be open for the public to read and gain knowledge, I'm willing to head up the project, and I'll just wait on your word for whether it's a go or not. =)
I am sending a link to this thread to TrueDark via PM, as well as the Recommended forge maps thread. I personally think this is a good idea but it needs approval and there may be conflicting reasons why he would not approve. One of us will get back to you in the near future.