Over the past few years in the forging community, I've found that most people are pretty good about giving and taking feedback respectfully. That said, not everyone is, and when it goes bad it seems to go bad quickly and climactically. This thread will go over some of the basics of how to give and receive feedback in a respectful manner conducive to an atmosphere of growth and improvement. 1. Giving Feedback Before giving feedback, make sure you have at the very least downloaded the persons map and taken a walk around it. Look at it in detail and try to draw some conclusions about what you are noticing. After that play it if you are able and if nothing seems game-breaking or extremely unpleasant. Play multiple games if you can, possibly taking notes on what you notice. When posting the feedback over a forum such as this one, make sure to keep emotions as neutral as possible and to do your best to be unoffensive. What may not bother you may annoy or offend others, so it is best to keep feedback for people you don't know professional. Make sure the person understands how much time you spent looking at the map and whether or not you played it at all (not playing the map is not a reason for them to reject your feedback, which I will discuss later.) Finally, understand that your experience was only one possible angle, and that further testing or a different viewpoint may make your feedback irrelevant. Even so, make it clear that this is what you saw and try to supply some reasonable suggestions to fix the issues, though remember that they may not be taken. Sometimes maps simply can't be fixed to play very well. However, very few people want to hear this so you must be able to back up your argument and make sure they understand why it doesn't work and how they could do things differently in another map. 2. Receiving Feedback When receiving feedback from someone else, always remember to take it with a grain of salt. You may not agree with the feedback, you may even flagrantly disagree, but don't waste your time explaining to the person why they are wrong. After all, they just took the time to freely help you out with your map. Simply thank them for the feedback, and judge it for yourself. Almost all feedback, even that which seems blatantly wrong, is worth looking into. The person may have been wrong, but even going back and confirming that something is not a problem helps you in the long run. A forger must always be open to feedback, whether they like it or not. It is still the forger's choice to integrate the changes or not, so do not feel threatened if people say your map needs large changes or may even be unfixable (make them explain themselves in this case of course.) In the end, the best thing to do is simply look into their suggestions and be open minded about what is really going on on your map. What one should not do is reply with a long argument about why your map doesn't have the problems other say it has. Many forgers get defensive about their designs or take offense at the way someone gave the feedback. Always assume that people are not trying to be offensive in a post unless it is truly blatant, at which point you should take the higher ground and remind them to act more appropriately. Maturity is key when dealing with criticism, and the worst you can do is stoop to the level of the other person. If they are truly belligerent about it and are yelling at you it is best to ask them to leave the conversation. Here is an example of a good response to feedback that you found ridiculous or completely baseless: "While I do not agree that my map has these problems, and I have never heard of anyone else having them, I will look into them just in case. Thank you for the feedback." This response is clean, short, gets the point across, and does not risk starting an argument. Even in the case of a total idiot or troll giving you feedback, maintaining professional speech will give them no ammo to use against you and will bore them. In drastic cases it is also a good idea to simply stop replying to the person early on and ask a moderator to remove their comments. 3. Common Flawed Arguments There are many arguments that people try to use when receiving criticism that are fundamentally flawed. Getting these as responses to feedback is frustrating, and understanding why they do not work and being able to articulate it is key. • "Your feedback is invalid because you did not play the map, you only looked at it/ walked around it in Forge." This is one of the biggest cop-out arguments there is for forgers. It has been proven time and time again that even a decent forger can look at a map in forge for a while and gain an understanding of some of its flaws and weaknesses, especially if there are large ones. I would never argue that everything can be understood, and playing the map will always give one a better understanding than just looking at it, but a lot can be learned by analyzing a map in forge. Forgers who have been around a while recognize things that they have watched others do or that they remember doing themselves, things that may seem like a good idea at the time but rarely play well. An example of this would be building a giant bridge map connecting 2 distant land masses, or having a series of long tunnels in a map with no line of sight blockers or alternate routes. Forgers can often tell that a map has problems without playing on it because, in essence they HAVE played on maps with similar concepts many times. Some things will be different, but the largest flaws will still have the same effects. There are always those 0.1% of maps that somehow pull it off alright, but in almost ever situation it is easy to tell if a map has large issues before a game is even started. Playing the map is helpful for feedback, but definitely not always necessary. • "I had my friends look at the map, and they liked it, so you must be biased against me or my map." • "My friends are great forgers and they like it, so you must be wrong." These arguments are fallacious because they assume a number of things that may or may not be true: That the reviewer is biased, that the friends are actually good designers/ forgers, that the friends are right, and that more people saying something makes it the correct thing. "That millions of people share the same forms of mental pathology does not make these people sane." – Erich Fromm, The Sane Society. Similarly, that all of someone's friends like a map does not make that map good. The same argument can be made for certain maps or weapons in Halo 4, but that is another thread. Assuming how someone feels about a map is also baseless, as you can't truly know how they feel over the internet. • "You're just telling my map map is bad to make yourself look good and keep me down!" This one is just plain insulting. It takes a lot of time and effort to help people out with their designs while working on improving your own and trying to live life (not to mention it's finals week as I write this!) To tell someone who just went out of their way to help you that you are working against them is about the most insulting thing you can say to them. This is a situation in which it is time to call the person out and ask them to grow up or get out. • "I've been forging for years/ I'm a level designer/ I have more experience than you." This is a logical fallacy. While experience helps, the quality of a map speaks for itself. Even good, experienced forgers can make bad maps at times. Having level design experience or having experience in another program also does not transfer over to forge necessarily. Similarly, the halo sandbox is different from other sandboxes, so even someone who has designed for Counter-Strike may not make a map that is particularly good for Halo. Finally, a high quantity of maps made does not equal high quality maps made. 38 bad maps are still bad maps. As I sated above, the quality of a map speaks for itself. Conclusion The Halo Community, especially the forging community, is a great place to go for honest feedback. This feedback may be harsh, but as long as a level of respect is maintained you can gain a lot by both giving and receiving criticism. Remember, the goal of anyone giving you feedback is to help you better understand forging/ design in general as well as to improve your map, so make sure this is always the reason you are giving feedback as well. Respect, open-mindedness, and healthy skepticism are the keys to unlocking your forging potential.
thanks. I know that even when I've felt that someone's feedback missed the mark, I've found ways of making changes to further ensure they won't have those problems if and when they play. it's always good to know what people like or don't like so that you can take it into consideration, even though it is YOUR map.
You see I agree with all of this. I have not posted any maps myself personally I am just on these forums to see what the community is pumping out so I can take a look and ad some standouts to my gamenights. However I have noticed a few things myself that have left me rather baffled and id like to mention them. The reason I find that people attempt with an essay on why their map does not have the faults that the criticizer is suggesting is so that other people viewing the thread don't automatically get a bad impression of the map and assume that the map indeed has that issue simply because one person had commented on it. However like you said this could easily be nullified with a quick acknowledgement of the feedback, but you can still disagree without being rude. HOWEVER, I have seen quite a few instances where the criticizer will have that "I've been forging for years/ I'm a level designer/ I have more experience than you." attitude right off the bat which pretty much destroys the thread. Also I have found instances where people comment on aspects of another's map threads that are completely irrelevant and have nothing to do with the map itself. And when the thread author disagrees and asks them to stay on topic, then all hell breaks loose and the author is shut down for not accepting critisizm that clearly wasn't even relevant to the thread. I've seen this in four threads over the past month or so and im honestly dumbfounded. It's as if the criticizer is untouchable whoever they are. I think that you are 100% correct in this statement "Finally, understand that your experience was only one possible angle, and that further testing or a different viewpoint may make your feedback irrelevant. Even so, make it clear that this is what you saw and try to supply some reasonable suggestions to fix the issues, though remember that they may not be taken. This point I feel needs to be stressed more than anything as I feel it is the cause of most if not all the arguments that happen on map threads. Many times while viewing the comments on threads I see comments shutting new forgers down, calling their maps outright terrible, badly designed, sh*t, more cussing, more swearing just from viewing the screenshots. Mind you this is in the very first feedback comment on the thread and it makes me sick. There are so many kids on these forums and a lot of people forget that. If you really want to nurture the talents of new and upcoming forgers then make sure you feedback is relevant and put in a good light so that people don't get disheartened and then leave. It's no secret that the forge community is slowly crumbling away, and I believe this is one of the major reasons why. About two days ago I read a comment from somebody on a map thread, it was something along the lines of this, "I don't need to sugar coat this sh*t to get it across, change (lists aspects of the map) and this map will have SOME potential to it kid, if you can't take my CONSTRUCTUVE critisism then gtfo". The reason I mention the above is simply because I find it everywhere. On roughly every second or 3rd map thread is somebody going off in a rather aggressive and pretentious tone demanding the author change aspects of their map, their map thread, their map name, the gametypes the author has designed the map around (that clearly are not to the liking of the aggressor), it just makes me sick. Constructive criticism isn't just about telling people what aspects of their maps YOU don't like and that YOU think are sh*t and demanding them to change it. Constructive criticism is offering valid and well reasoned opinions involving both positive and negative comments in a FRIENDLY manner as opposed to an oppositional one. One thing I have learned in my 28 years is that if you go at somebody with a sh*t attitude, they will come back at you with a sh*t attitude. No matter how valid or invalid your comments, or feedback might be. This also goes for map creators receiving feedback. If you feed a bee sugar, it will give you honey. At the end of the day we are all here for the same reason, to create maps, enjoy the work of others and to support everyone. If somebody needs to put more work into a map, tell them so in a good way or they WILL block off to you. That's a fact. I'm honestly just thinking about the younger guys on here. Yes it's a tough world but tough makes it in no way more efficient.
Good write up. Id recommend newer people to our forums to give this a read through. As matter of fact, even people who've been around a bit longer should give it a read. p.s: Sticky this maybe... mods?
glad to see this stickied, as I really want to keep participating in the forge community and halo in general. I agree that better ettiquete with regard to giving and receiving feedback will help keep the community together. what we need are more game nights in the Community Customs area, and people not just going there and saying "hey join me for some customs" because that usually ends up being some guy who hasn't really spent much time in the forge community. It tends to be someone who has wandered onto the forums to try and boost participation of his/her personal game lobby and has only tinkered around in Forge some and as soon as they make a map, they think it's great. Please do not confuse that observation with trying to crap on new forgers (I was new only a very short while ago), but seriously, there are some really bad maps out there, and we need more game nights that feature the good ones so that they become more popular than those that just happen to have a clever name and a silly gametype to go with it. The trouble is, how do you explain this to that map's author or the person trying to organize custom games with horrible maps as the main attraction? It's really tough and I've tried to do it before and failed. There was a guy recently who was posting in the Community Customs and I joined his lobbies a few times, each time, being as frustrating as the last. Broken maps (most of them) with terribly imblalanced gameplay where the guy who knew where the sniper was could wreak havoc on people every time they spawn in. They also typically tried to fill up the lobby by leaving it Open and using maps that are much too small for 16 players. Proper regard to map size vs party size is in order. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be enough awareness of good maps and sites like this one. We should try and funnel all customs groups into the place where the most artistic and well-balanced maps reside. Otherwise, there's lots of "I took some blocks and bridges and linked them and placed a bunch of weapons and my friends think it's a good map"... lol
I am a bit surprised that this thread is even written, not that I am critical of it, but it points the finger at key individuals here at FH as well as the casual critic. I have seen people (I refuse to mention names) who are regulars here, who have held important roles here, tear apart a person over their map, using some of the same fallacious tactics described here, only to lick their chops when the kid cries uncle. It was truly heart breaking...
well, isn't that the point of this thread? to say to everyone, veterans, newbies, and all in-between, "Let's regroup and remember why we are here and why we like doing what we do?" I say put all beef out to pasture and just participate as best you know how. No need to name names at all, and the people with bad attitudes will show their own colors in time.
Exactly. This isn't point fingers at anyone in particular, and I posted it on many sites in the Halo community so that everyone could see it. It's just something everyone should understand.
Thanks for the write up! It has always been frustrating to deal with a community member who outright refuses to believe that his map has flaws and that he is not without mistakes. This will help members of all groups to receive, recieve, and possibly understand the feedback given to them. Much appreciated FlyingShoe.
I always take feedback as a fairly accurate way to know what the majority of people will think of your map. Even if you disagree with what they are saying, if 3 out of 4 people say the same thing in a map preview, chances are that the same ratio of people will agree with them on a larger scale. Example: Say you post a map preview and the first two people say the map plays fine but the aesthetics are boring. That means that considering the law of averages, 100% of people are going to say the same thing. Refusing to admit to or fix problems is the biggest mistake a forger can make. If you can address the feedback early on (after the first few posts people have made) then you are going to drastically improve the map because you are eliminating a problem that the majority of people would have otherwise had issues with. Good article Shoe.
You know, it's too bad that not every one could read this before the flaming began in that other map post, maybe the lock could have been avoided. Shoe is absolutely correct. And there needs to be a demeanor on here, and everywhere else creative minds gather to express their creative works, mainly Forge maps. It is up to us to take each and EVERY critisizim, be it contructive or profane, and use it for the greater good of what we strive to do here, make quality maps that everyone will want to download and enjoy. I have read postings that turned from the OP taking constructive critisizim for his map, to making it sound like every bit of feedback was an insult to his being, and that just is not right. I personally have no place for people like that, and choose not to include myself in the pissing match that it enevitably becomes. Just saying...