FANE I'm in the leaderboard for CE, Assault on the Control Room, timed, Easy, around #300 or so. Look for "I IZ CAB0OSE" (first "0" in caboose is a zero) and friend me to get the map. This turned out to be a much more complex problem than I'd originally thought. I've - quite literally - spent four solid weeks on framerate issues. The play area outside the cathedral was originally bounded by cliffs and used natural terrain, but that was simply not going to work. The incinerator had to be completely redone from scratch no less than 5 times in order to find metallic pieces that wouldn't drop frames. Same with the bases. And I apologize in advance for some of the lazy cover on the perimeter . . . I simply couldn't control framerate if I built structures out there. At least much of the cover is height variation . . . but that wasn't quite enough. So, supplemented with lazy cover. The cathedral itself remained how I wanted it (though piece reduction was required). The map ended up using ~400 structural pieces and 200 pieces associated with spawns, objectives, and kill/safe zones. While there are occasional frame drops at the periphery of the map, they impact gameplay very minimally, and the interior plays smoothly. Smoothness looks much better than the game DVR footage - 30fps kind of sucks. Fane is supposed to be for larger team sizes - up to big team size (but no vehicles). For 4v4 play, CTF, Swat, and Snipers should work pretty well (I've only tested it 3v3 max so far). KoTH will likely play too slowly for my taste at 4v4. But since it's really supposed to be for bigger teams anyway, it's kind of nice that it works for some games with smaller teams. Fane plays everything (including neutral variants and infection) except territories. I don't really intend to add territories, as I want to keep the object count no greater than 610 because I fear that the map may not load (as yet untested). Weapons are 9 battle rifles - with 4 each somewhat near to the bases and one common BR hanging on the wall in purple. Also snipers at each base, 4 magnums, 10 frags, 4 stickies, overshield at mid (which becomes rockets for CTF - hate OS in CTF), beam rifle (in purple; a later add to counter the pulpit), and invis / sword in the basement (incinerator room). Looking for thoughts on the weapons choices, weapon layouts, and overall impression of the map. Geometry adds are not likely to be possible . . . moving stuff around or deleting things very well might be. Just no budget for adds.
I like the height variance... but holy hell, you've gone overkill with this map. The amount of levels, sections, and sheer size of the map makes it unsuitable for 4v4. You're right that Snipers could work... it could work really well (save for one exlusion I'll mention below). But for everything with it's size, this would only work for 6v6 and higher without being too stale. The sightlines around the outside seem a little obstructive from the video as well. The random struts that appear to have no significance in the map deter the visibility around the edges, but players main focus will always be the central tower of the map (judging by it's sightlines, and it's severe height advantage over the bases). If players aren't flocking to this upper level constantly in your playtests, then I can see this maps whole concept being built for naught. That said, the one exclusion I'd suggest is removing the entire sub-level. It's completely unnecessary when compared to the rest of the map. Like I said, the entire upper level should be every team's focus (one central point of control is usually bad in a Halo game as it means there are no counter points). With the lack of cover (from above) of the surrounding bases and side areas, this makes the top level extremely powerful and hard to counter. In my honest opinion, I'd completely remove the sub-level and instead use your salvaged objects on adding an upper level to each base. Use this upper level to connect the base tops to purple and yellow with completely exposed bridges. On the outside area, along the flooring, remove the obstructive struts, and decorative sightline blockers. Potentially widen the routes from each base to Yellow and Purple on the ground level. If you want to obstruct sightlines, use height variance in the floor. If you still think the ground floor routes to Yellow and Purple are too exposed, with the widened areas, create some form of tunnel, or cover towards the very outer wall, so players can sacrifice speed (reaching the destination quicker) to gain safety. It becomes a balanced trade off. The upper level in the bases gives the bases more control of themselves, rather than just a spawning hole, they can be a strategic keypoint of balance. If the enemy for example control your central tower, they have at least 75% map control in it's current state, if not more. Expanding the bases into towers and including cover, exposed routes to the central tower and heigh advantage over the ground floor routes, means that a team holding the central tower can control at the very most 60% of the map (when dissected into Red, Blue, Yellow, Purple, and Tower - Yellow/Purple + Red/Blue means a team has a safe area to spawn). With these extra additions (and the obvious exclusion of the basement) you can transform your map into something much more balanced, playable and enjoyable. You could even include some vehicular combat once the outer routes are widened. As a whole, the inside area of the tower is nicely Forged, and connects well. The Jump ups are very good. Risk v Reward scenario with them is acceptable.
Cool. Thanks for the detailed thoughts. It was built for big team - so being a bit big for 4v4 is a given - but I wanted it to be playable 4v4. From your impression, I failed in that regard. On the height variance . . . the map is actually taller (37 units) than it is wide (35 units). Someone standing on the floor of the basement is out of the scoped RRR of the BR from the upper level. Lol. I will remove most of the sublevel, but I will keep some protected routes underground. Having that option was important in CTF / assault. And yes, everyone immediately goes to the upper level. Virtually all of the actual combat occurs up there. Once you get to the loft, it's very fast-paced. It can take a while to get there, though. And that pulpit area is very powerful - your 75% estimate is not far from the mark at all. I think I messed up big time with the basement. I originally had 2-story bases. I dismantled them in favor of the basement. Unwise.
It's all a learning curve. If you find a place is actually dominating entirely you need to think "Why do I have other areas in the map if I have nobody using them?" and once you think that, just think on how to improve those areas so they're more balanced. Likewise, as you keep adding areas to make them more balanced, overall you'll find your map grow in size greatly. The reason I suggest removing the basement is the player's inability to control themselves in getting in and out. There are no standard ramps or paths into the bottom, its just drop down holes to get in, teleporters and man-cannons to get out. A player cannot strafe or engage in combat when doing any of those, which makes the basement area a prime place to camp and a perfect place to avoid. Most players would just completely avoid it. The only saving grace would be having 1,000 rockets down there... lol.
I think I just liked how the basement looked far to much over how it played. I didn't have the same problem with the cathedral - that got revised quite a bit to make it better to play. Kept the same general layout, though. If I delete the basement, I can go back to the recessed walkways (they were like the gutters that split the ground floor in Hang 'Em High) around the perimeter that I had before. The random struts will be unnecessary then, as the top level of the cathedral isn't tall enough to see down into the walkways. With those, I think widening the routes to yellow and purple would be unnecessary. The struts won't be in the way anymore, and the walkway was about 4 units wide. The corners between the bases and yellow / purple broke up the sightline enough that cover within the walkway itself was unnecessary. In retrospect, not sure why I thought it would be a good idea to sacrifice that for the basement. I think I just got stuck on it because the original plan had a pretty underground cave with lava in the center. You could walk into that one. 3 ways in; 3 ways out - all walking. No lifts or teleporters. But the framerate was awful, so I had to replace it with versions that eventually became the current one. Walkways disappeared because lifts are more efficient piece-wise. I just got that underground area stuck in my head and wouldn't let it go. Dumb.
Basement sections can be beneficial, but you have to analyse what they are - boxes with tunnels attached to them. Looking at any existing maps with "basements"; how frequently are the areas used, why? If they are used quite frequently, why? Maps that immediately spring to mind for me are; Construct, Isolation, Standoff, Lockout/down, Narrows (can you tell I played a lot of Halo 3?) The best "basement" section I could recall is Narrows, because of the way Narrows was built, the basement route on that was much larger, and still offered more protection. But with the numerous entry points, it still made travelling across this path a dangerous choice, especially since your enemy would likely have height advantage over you. If you absolutely must include a basement subsection, ramps are a necessity. Never underestimate a players desire to control something (isn't it like the worst when you get in a warthog in matchmaking as the gunner, and your driver is literally terrible?!). Taking something outside of a players control makes it automatically the maps fault for providing an area of a map that no player has control over reaching. The drop down hole is ok, so long as the drop distance is reduced, and the hole is slightly widened to allow for better grenade angling (think Construct's centre hole). Ramps can be any shape or size, so long as players aren't confined in their movements. So open or closed ramps is also an option to consider. If you have issues with framerate, closed ramps are likely the better option. Maybe with a turn in them so players have less objects on screen at any point. Finally, in comparison with Isolation, your basement level needs to have adequate anti-camping things in place. Isolation had 3 points of entry, 2 windows, and a drop-down hole to help rid campers of their base's basement. The more isolated an areas is, the easier it is to survive. The more routes into an area, the harder it is to survive. Finding the right balance of entry points in a covered up area is difficult, as it depends on it's size, shape, and what it has nearby (powerups / weapons). Typically, any single combat area you ever create in a Halo map should have at least 3 access points. The only things that should ever contain 2, are simply progression routes in which you use to reach combat areas. (construct basement has 4, Isolation basements have 5, Narrows has 8, Lockout shotgun tunnel has 2(no one stays down there though, because they're trapped, only one exit and a bit of nade spam is hard to dodge)).