The comic was just a joke. For laughs, ya know? =) I'm not really agnostic; I still use the Bible as a general outline of what God is. I do not, however, take the Bible to be absolute truth. If God turns out to be Zeus, fine by me. (What am I gonna do about it?) I'm still sticking to my beliefs though. "To be proven wrong should be celebrated..."
God (IMO of course) is the being/something that has always existed, and set in motion a series of events that lead us here today. (Namely, the Big Bang.)
You've already removed a key part of God by making it a necessity that He be created or have a beginning. According to Christianity, whose point of view I'm arguing from, God's essential nature is eternal; in other words, He does not have a beginning. If you say that doesn't make sense, that everything needs a beginning, remember that I believe God created time as well, so He isn't constricted by it.
Well, you can't really say that he created time. He has always existed, so he is sort of "undefinable" by time. Time is a constraint placed upon us mere mortals. It helps us keep track of when certain events occurred, are occurring, or will occur. And as you said, God is not constricted by time, because time does not really exist with him.
In that since it makes sense. Still, it is hard to comprehend something that has lasted before time started and will last after time ends. But this point still does not persuade my perception on god, this only has helped me answer another problem that I am stuck on. Still, thanks for the reply.
Why couldn't the universe have always existed? You're on your way to being one. You have very, very agnostic beliefs. The only way you could possibly equate yourself to Christianity still is by believing in Jesus. Even so, a mere 200 years ago you would have been declared a heretic and burned at the stake, disemboweled, tortured, and in all probability informed that after you die you will face more torture under satan's watch. If you lie with the dogs, you'll get fleas. If this is the way allegedly "higher-ups" of your catholic faith act in light of a dissenting OPINION, then what does this reflect of your god? To be proven wrong SHOULD be celebrated but to wallow in ignorance because "it's nice to imagine" or "I've always believed it" only seeks to undermine civilization and the grandeur of the universe.
Actually, I can say He created time. As I'm a Christian (as already stated), I believe in the truth of the Bible, in which John 1 states that God created all things. I place "time" under the "all" category, as all is all-inclusive. TXGhost, I'm glad I could clear that up for you. I don't expect you to just change your beliefs off of one question, but I am glad I could get rid of some confusion. =)
Eternal things do not grow old, as they are eternal. The concept of old is lost on things that are eternal because, by nature, they defy time. Our universe shows signs of decay: stars die out, planets are crushed by meteors; even evolutionists agree that the universe had a beginning.Therefore, our universe is not eternal, as it is growing old.
Would you care to explain how something that does not exist creates itself? Because, if it is to be created, it cannot exist in the first place.
I'm going to have to phrase this delicately. You do understand that by universe I am equating it to existence. Universe is an archaic term that has dropped out of theoretical physics. The multiverse is where it's at. Anyway! Time is constrained to the 1-10 dimensions, not to the 11th which just so happens to be the dimension that creates universes! So, why couldn't the universe have always existed? I heard 'all' and assumed it meant everything. I was just following what the bible said. I thought god was included within existence. Could be wrong though.
ZOMG double post lol. But Lance, time is a constraint. God is not constrained by anything. While God created everything, time is not one of them. How could he create something he was already in? The answer must be that time is nonexistent for him. Our only use for time is keeping track of things. What use for time does God have? I certainly don't think he has all his itinerary down using a calendar. He reacts, waiting for the right moment to do certain things. He responds to events, not times. Nitrous, when I say that I don't take the bible to be absolute truth, I mean that some of the stories I don't think are true. But I believe in Jesus, the cross, God, that his disciples existed, etc. It goes beyond what you think I believe in, but it would be just tedious listing. What I don't want to say though, is what God "thinks" or will do (besides that Judgement Day stuff). What I believe is what he has already done. And where are you pulling this dimensional stuff from?
First off, I believe by "phrase delicately" it appears you meant, "try to confuse." If you meant existence, why didn't you say "existence," instead of universe, which, according to every dictionary I've read, is not at all a synonym? Secondly, I have never heard of time being constrained to 1-10 dimensions; quite frankly, I don't even know what the 1-10 dimensions are. Last I heard there were around 4, possibly five. Would you like to explain what the eleventh one is, and why it has outside control over everything else? I'd appreciate that more than you stating your unsupported beliefs as facts. Lastly, you didn't at all answer my points on eternity, time, and the universe. You simply repeated your question. That's not the way a debate works, my friend...
Substantiate your claims. You were strongly agnostic when it suited against by arguement now you are firmly against it? Prove to me, through a historical reference - not the bible, that Jesus existed, was crucified, and rose from the dead.
@ Lance: That is why time can't exist for God. It created a paradox when you say that "God created everything" because that means he created himself. EDIT: Whoa, Nitrous. What I was saying before when I said that "we can't fully grasp the concept of God" was that we can't know how god thinks or reacts. Now, my "historical reference" would be the bible. That is why Catholicism is a religion. I requires faith and dedication; nothing that causes a sweat. Again, what I believe in are most stories in the bible, and that there will be a Judgement Day (though maybe not the way some describe it). But if you try to tell me what God is like, i'll just take your words with a grain of salt. And I believe Lance would like to know as well... Where is this dimensional stuff coming from? It seems to have the validity of a conspiracy theory.
Explains the ten dimensions. Its around 10 minutes long so if you have some free time I suggest you watch these, even though this theory may not be correct it certainly get you to thinking, which is really what the world needs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuAhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySBaYMESb8o&feature=channel
Because for people who know what they are talking about, the universe to them means existence. Our "universe" is just one (I'm going to use a metaphor) soap bubble out of a possibly infinite amounts of soap bubbles. The area that contains these soap bubbles is what I referred to as the universe. It is not the universe, but I called it that anyway. I'm sorry if I confused you, we have different terminologies. I can't really explain a higher dimension in the debate forums, practically, it's a little more complicated than that. I can do my best to find a good explanatory video for you. Would that work? Visual illustrations would be much easier for you to learn by. EDIT: TX beat me to it, though, they do not cover the 11th dimension. My friend, you misinterpreted my post. I tried to correct it, so you could respond appropriately. Your question is null, if you only understood what I was asking.
Your points don't line up, Eons. You say "while God created everything, time is not one of them." That makes...no sense. If He created everything (except Himself, since He was already created, Nitrous...use some logic), then He created everything, and time is included in that. Secondly, to say that you don't believe the Bible to be absolute truth, but that you place your entire eternity's hopes in a part of the Bible is extremely dangerous. If one part isn't true, what's to say that the part you firmly believe in isn't untrue as well? While Jesus' resurrection cannot be proved (as it happened in the past and cannot be repeated, which is the definition of scientific proof), Nitrous, there is a great deal of evidence pointing towards it. Did you know there are only seven copies of The Republic, by Plato? Seven. Do you know how many copies of the New Testament alone there are? 5,366. Plato's book is considered to be an accurate, historical representation of its time. Therefore, since the Bible has 776 times more copies, I believe it to be just as accurate, if not more so. The Bible claims that Jesus died, buried, resurrected on the third day. If you want to know where I found these facts, I suggest you look at Is the New Testament Historical?. Enjoy.
That's it! That is exactly it! No one should ever ascribe a meaning to that which they could never hope or even dream of understanding! That would be insane, deceitful, and foolish! That is exactly why you are an agnostic that adheres to Christian dogma (which in and of itself sounds like an impossibility). God made logic and is illogical. The only way to debate god is by being completely erratic and illogical. Ah, I see. So just because you can yell a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes true. I'm still reading your reference. May not finish tonight considering how fast the debate is moving.