Lance: What I mean is, while God created most things, time is not one of them. To say that he created everything is to say that man has created nothing. Fine Nitrous, I'm an agnostic Catholic. I don't know what God is like, because that would be foolish. But that doesn't mean I can't believe other things in the bible, like the fact that God created the universe (fact to me, ludicrous for you).
We are not ascribing anything to God He has not ascribed to Himself, Nitrous. Everything I believe about God, His character, and His works are based off what He Himself claims as infallible Truth, His Word, the Bible. So it is not an arrogant supposition made by mere mortals...it is us repeating what He Himself said in the first place. God made logic, correct. But He is not illogical. He is simply outside of logic. And would you care to point to where I'm being erratic or illogical? I don't believe slinging insults is the correct way to debate, though it does being to make me doubt your credibility. Eons, please support your claim that God made "most" things but not all...with evidence, not just opinion. EDIT: Eons, what do you believe man has created that God has not?
Good points, but I believe I would define God as simply above our thinking level. Obviously, no man would want a god who was equally smart as he. That in mind, God is logical by His more insightful standards. An inferior mind cannot grasp a superior God. Such things as the Trinity come to mind. There's no way a human mind could grasp how three beings could exist as one and as many at the same time. I believe you were hinting at this, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents to give Nitrous something to pick on. Enjoy.
Did God make calendars, days, weeks, hours, minutes, or seconds? When I say that God didn't create time, it means he did not create the past, present, and future. The past, present, and future came about on their own, through the progression of life/existence. God has no past, present, or future because he is eternal. He is not bound by our clocks and watches. If you believe that God created time Lance, then what would you call the period he existed before the creation of time?
By believing in a religious doctrine you are ascribing the traits given to him by man. When I say god is unknowable, I mean just that. He can't get emotional (as revealed in gods word), he can't dictate to us (as revealed in gods word), and he can't artificially inseminate some virgin to produce offspring (as revealed in gods word). Saying that he can do these things is giving him traits. Whether they were revealed by god or not means nothing. If you are going to claim he is unknowable, then the words themselves mean nothing. I'm sorry about this but god damn your dumb. You weren't being erratic, I was. That was the joke. "...use some logic." Does that ring a bell? At all? I then said, "you can't debate god using logic, he is illogical" which is an allusion to rusty's post. Your inability to even spot that openly expressed sarcasm towards myself makes me doubt your credibility. Once again sorry for calling you dumb.
I agree with you, dented, though I would describe it as God limiting Himself so that He could be partially understood. Although I wasn't hinting at the Trinity, that is an excellent example. And, yes, last poster, I do believe the Bible is 100% true AND accurate.
That's not ludicrous! I am well on my way with you. The bible can be used to take moral values from, to take entertainment, or comfort - just like any other book. I believe in the bible's existence, I believe that those words were written thousands of years ago, and I believe that the men behind it, though misguided, were brilliant thinkers of their time. String theory glorifies god (or gods) more than any old creation story ever could. God may have very well created the universe. Is it probable? Not really. Is it possible? Yes. Anything is possible.
Sorry. Not ludicrous but... not likely, I should have said. And I was talking about the "fact" that God created the universe, not the Bible as a whole.
God didn't personally create computers, Eons, but man didn't create them either. Man put together things that were already created. They didn't CREATE...they molded, shaped, moved, etc. Therefore, no, man has created nothing. Man has done TONS with what has already been created, don't get me wrong. But you cannot say man created a computer without first asking who created the particles that make up that computer. Secondly, you can't say that the future doesn't exist yet, and then follow that up with saying God is outside of time. If God is outside of time, then He is not on a timeline, like you are thinking. He is currently experiencing past, present, and future, because He is outside of time. As humans thinks of time as a line, God is a circle that encompasses the entire line, because He is not constricted by time. Nitrous, your points are illogical again. You completely ignored that I said God's Word was just that: God's Word. You then moved past that and said that man ascribed everything to Him, and created religion from there. Again, I'll repeat myself, and maybe this time you could reply to my actual point: God's Word describes Himself, and Christians base their beliefs on His attributes off HIS WORD. Lastly, I have not and will not claim that God is unknowable. Please stop putting false words in my mouth. Finally, calling me dumb is pathetic, to be honest. It shows you're getting emotionally worked up over an intellectual argument. I didn't participate in this debate to get yelled at, belittled, and mocked. I'm here to offer logical ideas and back them up with evidence. So far you have insulted me, ignored my points, and then slathered everything in sarcasm. If you would like to argue intelligently about the points I'm bringing up, you are welcome to. If you're just going to act like an immature 12-year-old who cannot think rationally but merely tosses out rude comments, I'm done. It's your choice. To whomever posted a YouTube video in which the sixth word was a swear word, no thanks. If you care to present evidence in a polite, non-insulting manner, I'll listen to you. If you want to show off bigoted rude mockeries, I think I'll pass.
If you get past the title of the video, it does make some very good points. I'm not trying to be insulting, that was just the title of the show.
It may make some excellent points, Draw the Line, but in the first minute there was more swearing than I personally can handle. As a Christian, I try to limit my intake of swearing, as I don't believe it glorifies God. If you can find the same arguments presented in a more respectable manner, I would be more than willing to look into them. =)
I wasn't saying God was on a timeline. What I was getting at is that God exists in time, but that there wasn't exactly a past. A timeline needs a beginning and an end; God has neither. So what I'm trying to say is that time is nonexistent because God has always existed, even before and after our time. What you are saying here is that god experiences time, but yet he created it.
Eons, I see what you're saying, but your last comment confused me. Why wouldn't God be able to experience something He created? I'm saying He isn't LIMITED by it.
Because time is something only we experience. Once we die and go to Heaven or Hell, we are eternal too, right? He is sitting in the clouds or whatnot, "living" in his eternity. Meanwhile, our bodies are on Earth, living in time. Once we die, that constraint is gone.
I probally should have taken the time to read all the post so i no if what im saying is still on topic and hasnt been stated many times b4 but i havent and for that i am sorry... but onward... you obviously r not drawing ur facts from some clear source GOD is in no way the devil not to mention present in him... nowhere does it say GOD is in everything (in the sense u r using it) not to mention... that you can't literally inturpret (spelling??) EVERYTHING in the Bible clearly the Earth wasn't created in 7 (24 hr) days.... and GOD isnt present in the devil... and this is a ridiculus statement... if ur r going to say something so made please have information to back it up... or at least no what ur talking about... Atheist i presume (no offense to Atheiests)..... n i no i cant spl at the moment ive just woke up and am still bloody tired...
I'm going to try this one more time. You started it. Does it make it right for me to insult you? No. Understand though, that I'm not the bad guy, and I'm not the one getting emotional. I will get to my gods words comments in a moment I'm playing gears. Also, any question I didn't answer please restate or quote. I did not mean to skip them, don't think I'm evading the arguement. It is hard to debate three people at once with little or no help from supporters (and play gears at the same time).
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of time being something only we experience. Forgive me if that was what I appeared to be saying. I'm trying to say that if God created time, then He is not limited by time. He may choose to limit Himself, but it would be His choice. He may choose to experience it as well. Secondly, I believe our souls are eternal, but not our bodies. In other words, death is not the end for anyone; it is merely the beginning of eternity. I hope that makes some sense. =/ "Try this one more time?" Really, Nitrous? Care to point out where I began to insult you?
Here you go good sir. There is a fairly overwhelming amount of information there presented in a much more polite manner. I have to ask, for a person who avoids their intake of curse words, how do you play Halo and other violent games?