Sorry, missunderstanding Infinity IS a concept, that is my point. Many believe time has always existed, infinity, what I did is show it cannot exist. Time is FINITE. God is not comprehensible for the most part. We can't even comprehend his omnipresence, a span of infinity makes our brain hurt. You are getting into God's properties, not his existence. Where God got his will, or properties we know not, but we know since he is outside of time he never changed. You say the brain is a natural process, and supporting this you use that God's consciousness had to be given. No, animals eat their babies, is that natural for us too?.....Anyway, Consciousness can only be begotten from so. This cannot degrade God though; God is the ultimate consciousness, the GIVER of life, not the receiver. Plus, we already know something had to exist forever to create the world and etc., that is comprehensible by toddlers as I have said before. Continuing from their God's conscience was not given because he never changes.
It is still happening today. and Besides, if not ****-erectus, just think of the first humans. What would they have thought?
If something always existed, why wouldn't it be an acceptable theory that everything always existed, but wasn't created by some omnipotent being?
SAYS YOU. Why should it be one or the other? Why not a selection pattern? OK, sure, I'll grant you that. God cannot change. This is where my talk about properties comes into play. He had no choice on whether he was conscious or not. It just turned out that way and it turns out god is conscious, so what conscious gave that conscious? Now, the last thing I want to do is underestimate you but if you say god doesn't need a giver of consciousness then you aren't paying attention and if you say god could have always existed with a consciousness then you still aren't paying attention. Consciousness only begets consciousness (according to you). God is random, necessarily. This means that it was entirely random that god had the property of consciousness that he had. He didn't create his own consciousness so where did it come from? Consciousness wasn't created by god, it's only used by god to create more consciousness (if you believe that sort of thing). The point being at some point consciousness just IS. Because it is a property of god, all properties must be as infinite as he is, otherwise it would signify a change and as you said earlier change is not something that is within god. My question to you, if consciousness just is, in your worldview, why is it required that god must be giving it? Also, I offered alternatives to god that could exist forever. They are more probable, by definition, than god.
About Time being finite, in the beginning of my argument I thought I made it clear that if anything occurs it could not have been preceded by an infinite amount of time. If so it never would have happened. Something happens every millisecond, get my point? About God, he is ultimately the concept of everything. He is not like us, with a personality given by soul and brain. He is the ultimate consciousness. Nothing can come about without the concept first existing, that concept can develop in to something using other concepts of something that exists. God is the ultimate creator, he has all concepts, thoughts, possibilities and everything in his mind. It is not a finite number of things because he cannot change. His mind stretches to infinity. If he was THE mind, THE life, and THE creator, how can he have a personality? Personalities are given to people. GIVEN. God is not like people. But we are conscious like him. The reason we would need consciousness to be given is because we are finite beings, we have a beginning and we change. God, as I said earlier, is infinite minded, has infinite thoughts, and concepts. That is most of God, CONCEPTS, THOUGHTS, things that he was not, but knew of their possibility. The only thing God IS, as in not just knows about but actually IS, is love. Love is best expressed toward something or someone. Love can only be love if it is given freely. Another concept, not property of God, is free will. If someone is forced to marry someone, do they love their spouse? No. Therefore God gave Adam and Eve the choice of loving God and showing it by obeying, or choosing defiance. They chose defiance, they sinned and were spiritually separated from God. Since then we are born of Adam naturally, not God. Born separated from him. We still have a chance though. God shed his own blood to give us one: Jesus OR Hell
Quick, what's the difference between god and higher dimensions? Evidence and complex mathematics. You CANNOT deny that we live in 3 dimensional space. It would be difficult to try and deny 2 dimensional space or even one dimensional but I assume dimensions lower than ours don't phase you. What about time? The fourth dimension? You believe in time don't you? Albert Einstein; e=mc2? One of two things just happened. Either you said, "yes I do believe in a higher dimension than our own" or "I do not believe in a higher dimension than our own." If it is the latter you need to start taking some math courses and prove that (your up against the greatest minds to ever take on mathematics). If you do believe that time is the 4th dimension, therefore, making it higher than the one you experience now, then what stops you from accepting a 5th or a 6th? Why must it stop at four? Do you have a reason other than simple dismissal as, "pish posh, dimensions don't exist." The problem is the popularization of dimensions has made people skittish. When people think dimension they think space zombies or fiction. Don't be so quick to brush dimensions to the side, they'll come back and get you with glaringly obvious logic.
• Yeah, a movie is just a bunch of moving "pictures", but scientific observations are made in real life. Real life, as far as i've observed, does not use moving pictures or illusions to make things seem like they occur. But who knows, my whole life could just be my senses getting fooled. 1. Israel's wars are pretty much all religion-fueled; I think that was the main point. The... fact that China may have had more wars is irrelevant. 2. Regardless of when the mass killings occurred, they still occurred and were motivated by religion. 3. Again, the fact that not all fights are over religion doesn't take away from the fact that religion still caused many wars and such. 4. Think of how many have been killed for "the glory of God". (Any god, like say the Mayan or Aztec gods. Human sacrifice alone killed how many?)
You can't talk about people being killed for the glory of "God" if there is only one we are currently debating. The existence of other gods such as zeus are far fetched and for that reason defended no longer. You can't say God is bad because religion kills people, religion can be classified as the multiple beliefs, but when refer to the biblical God, religion is taking things out of context and misunderstanding, then doing the wrong thing. For example, Paul told the corinthians to wear head coverings. People still take that literally, though it doesn't apply, it was meant for the church of corinth.
1. I understood that, but I just thought I'd put that other comment out there. 2. I was referring to your point that the killing camps were established 3 years after the war started. 3. Right, otherwise who would be in a religion? 4. If there were any human killings in the name of science, they were certainly miniscule in number. Anyway, I'm going to drop this point about religion causing wars, because I don't think that it's a great point at all (I'm not even going anywhere with this). I just thought I'd drop a couple cents in.
I thought I made it clear that your concept of infinity is flawed. For the third and final time: An infinite amount of infinitely small increments of time have just passed; an infinite amount of time just passed. Why? Why is he the ultimate consciousness? How do you know he's conscious or that he's kind and loving? How do you know he has the best intentions for you? My properties rebuttal does not only pertain to emotional or personified traits but to literally ANY trait god has. I would respond to this but you did it so much better: "how can he have a personality? Personalities are given to people. GIVEN." Why is god love? Is it because he willingly chose to love us or because it was innate within him and he had no choice but to love his creation? If personalities are given, who gave god his? Concept - an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct. Property - Logic. any attribute or characteristic. Tell me why free will is a concept from god instead of a bestowed attribute. Everything else is dogma and there's really no reason to attempt to debate it. Point and counterpoint mean nothing at that level. But it can be readily made fun of. Ricky Gervais does an excellent job. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEj3g5GOYA Are...are you trying to blackmail me? Huh, I guess love can be forced. What is Jesus to me? A man, a friend, a mentor, a teacher? No, not good enough. He can't be those things, he must be Lord. We can't just take what Jesus said and apply it we must believe Jesus said it and that he was god, otherwise you might as well have been a baby-raper. Look I don't know you, I don't claim to know you. You seem like a wonderful person. But, please, don't blackmail your religion onto people. You might as well have cut me and sold me a bandaid.
Which is exactly the reason God is still believed and zeus isn't... right. God provides proof. Greek gods spout from Greek mythology. Notice the word myth? Why don't you figure it out yourself? This is more of a personal question, and an arbitrary answer does not work in a debate. When I talk about that kind of religion, I mean something else. Allow me to put it simply. There is - Christianity: The oldest belief in the Lord Then religion comes in and perverts everything the Bible says. See mormons, catholics, and baptists. Mormons made their own bible. Catholics pray to mary. Correct me if i'm wrong, but baptists believe that you must be baptized to go to heaven, and only at a certain age. The Holy Bible, which their roots sprouted from, does not say to do any of these. Therefore, we call it religion when someone perverts our and gives it a new name.
People back then didn't think their religions were myths. Were they right? My question was more about "What makes your god more believable than the Greek gods", but never mind that point. It won't go far.
Did you honestly bother reading my first argument? "religion can be classified as the multiple beliefs, but when refer to the biblical God, religion is taking things out of context and misunderstanding, then doing the wrong thing." Oh, and if you'd like to see my previous point more clearly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations I am a non denominational Christian (couldn't find the word, dang it) @Zergling: The Christian is God is highly more plausible. Other Gods were made up on the spot. Just like somebody tried saying earlier "God is an escape - like a drug" which its not. Other people need some reason to believe what they do, so they make up a religion, right there, on the spot. No other god makes as much sense as the Christian one, no other god is backed up as much, their beliefs don't align with an objective, they are all subjective. Now try to tell me subjective morality is correct.
*SLAP* I read it wrong. Ignore me right now, I'm a big idiot. ~_~ EDIT 2: Ok, so why isn't Christianity subjective?
Well before I dwell into anything I think you may have a misunderstanding on what objective and subjective morality is. Objective is the morality given by a greater power, whereas subjective is what the user believes is right. However, you can't say subjective goes with objective because you personally believe an objective moral. Now, does God not give objective morality? I hope I don't have to state a source, because many times in the Bible Jesus (Jesus IS God, if you didn't know) himself tells us what some right and wrong things are. If this isn't obvious enough for you, then I don't know what to say.