That is a valid concern but it has yet to produce any unbalance as of yet for my testing. The focus rifle is counter the sniper rifle, the shotgun counters the hammer, the conc. rifle counters the grenade launcher and the needle rifle counters the DMR. those are all pretty equa-distant and close to opposite teams. You would get 50 points of I had them to give! I did get some inspiration from GEMINI for this. I like the long, open space that was the center of the map. Here are some GEMINI screens for comparison:
This map is beautiful, everything up to the clever use of distant aesthetics (similar to Rats Nest) makes this a truly unique creation. Can't wait to see this map progress further.
Well, this is a stunning map. Up there with the best right now, in my opinion. The layout is nice, and I love the slightly asymmetric design. The weapon layout seems like it would work well, though I haven't had the opportunity to play any games on it yet (though Im looking forward to doing so). I do have one suggestion after doing a thorough forge-through, though. The stairs you've created using the crenelations make for a very bumpy, rough path. They may look nice, but battling someone while traversing them can throw your shots off at times. You can very easily replace them with traditional inclines so its a smooth surface. As far as the framerate goes, like the previous poster, I haven't actually played a 4v4 game on it yet, so I can't comment on how it would act in game. However in forge, it was absolutely terrible from the very get-go of loading it up. So much so that I started deleting lots of extraneous items that were added purely for aesthetic flavor. I got back about $200 pretty easily after replacing the stairs like I mentioned above and some various other items, like the falcon pad outside, the curved wall "doors" that were added to the outer sides of the round ramps, replaced the one-way shield door with a couple double windows, and removed a couple other aesthetic architectural-supports that weren't even in the field of play anyway. I can show it to you if you wish. Even if the frame-rate isn't as bad in-game, it still isn't optimized for the best possible gameplay, which is what its all about, right? These simple changes improved the frame-rate by a very noticeable margin. At the very least, I'd like to see two versions of the map. An aesthetic version, and a competitive one. You've got a gem here, and I'd love to see it be the best it can be, because frankly, its badass. PS - I love the joke with the camping stools. Very clever and pretty humorous, actually
Awesome thoughts on the map Lightsout thanks! I know I could save a ton of budget if I eliminated the steps but I think that will be the one thing I don't ever change as it offers a large amount of the maps personality. Alot of the games I played in, people would usually jump up the steps anyways to get a better view around the tree or the objectives in between the flights (of stairs). I think I could let the shield door go (but I love the effect) and a few other things as well. I figured I'd max the budget, get some playtesting in on v1.1, then cut away at the stone that is Embassy to fine tune it. I will take these budget ideas into consideration though as they are all viable. I will probably kill the flashing red light as well since lighting is one of the biggest FR killers. I just had been exposed to many times to maps that have no real purpose in their design (Bungie even does this sometimes...Blood Gulch anyone?) so I wanted a map that provided a real setting and seemed as though it had purpose. All the "locked" doors, the falcon pad for VIP transport and stuff like that add to the realism of the setting and I need to retain as much of that as possible because being unique when every map is grey and geometric is a tough chore. Also thanks for enjoying my camping stool placement I was hoping people would get the joke.
I really have to disagree with this. Perhaps in the creator's mind it does, as all those little details matter to the creator. But as a player, it really doesn't matter at all, and the trade-off is well-worth it. It was literally the first thing that I thought "this has to go" Your map has boatloads of personality, but those stairs are a very minor part of it. Besides, if you REALLY want to keep stairs in there, there are much better ways of going about it. Such as placing the window coliseum's just below those stairs. You won't be able to see it, but the object's invisible barrier will create a smooth surface whilst still maintaining the aesthetic.
S***, this is the best map that I've ever seen, but no map comes without its flaws. I agree with a lot of things that Lightsout said. How many people do you think would stop to stare at something that looks kinda pretty? I say fix the stairs (They don't seem to match that well). I personally think flow of a map is more important than rigid aesthetics. Does realism really matter in 2550? The benches are a VERY nice touch, and I like your concept with the 'camping' stools. I can only imagine how awesome this would play with KOTH and CTF. Definate dl from me. Sometime next week.
btw its possible to get under the "Outer Walkways" portion of the map. This would affect gameplay if a person did it with the oddball since there is only one way in and it would take the average player multiple attempts to jump past the kill zones to get in there.
I would say yes it absolutely matters. So many details in Bungies default maps aren't overlooked while playing. They are simply expected and therefore passively observed. Then you hop into a forge map and its all blank walls and floors. Obviously they (Bungie) have a massive amount of control over what they can create but I pay attention. I walk through their maps and read each terminal, sticker and label. I observe the structures for ideas and simply to appreciate it. Just because we are in the future doesn't mean everything looks bland. I understand it is a FPS first and a tour second, but people take detail for granted in the dev maps so to attempt to provide it in a user-made creation is a fun challenge. I had problems in the past with this and I thought I fixed it. Are you playing on v1.0? If so, then yes its open. v1.1 has more boxes but I'll double check to see if I left any cracks. Thanks for pointing it out though I appreciate it! I have taken a few of lightsouts suggestions and regathered to almost $800 from $0 without any aesthetic sacrifices. I found a few walls that weren't needed and a few decorations that did not offer any real value. I also talked to a few friends who disagree about the stairs effecting their accuracy to any noticable degree so I will continue to poll peoples thoughts before taking action.
I agree with this. I do think that if you need to free up budget or *especially* if the map causes laggy play, aesthetics are the first thing that needs to be sacrificed - but the fact is that we don't just remember our favorite maps because they are a clever assembly of tunnels and ramps and boxes. We also, even if we don't consciously realize it, absorb the atmosphere and the general feel of the map, much of which comes from its aesthetics. So while gameplay is primary, I don't think the look of it is entirely left in the dust. I don't think Blackout is much inferior to Lockout from a design perspective, with a couple minor quibbles (stairs vs. ramps) - though I know MLG guys would disagree. But what I loved about Lockout that helped put it over the top was the frosty atmosphere and the falling snow. Blackout simply doesn't feel the same. I liked Avalanche in part for the same reason - on the other side I never liked playing on Sandtrap or default Sandbox because for whatever reason, all that sand rubs me the wrong way. It's just boring. Bungie's attention to detail and concern for aesthetics adds a layer of polish to their maps, and we should at least play with the notion of duplicating that. Beyond that though, anybody who says aesthetics don't drive Forgehub, and most user-created content, is lying. There are probably a mountain of good competitive maps with no real sense of aesthetics lying around completely ignored, because they don't have that one captivating screenshot that makes people pay attention. It might be an awesome steak, but if ain't sizzling, you ain't selling it.
As much as i enjoy being a contrarian, i have no choice but to reiterate what everyone else said. You made a swell ass map. So swell I had to register to tell you so. I only looked at it briefly in forge but it's seriously a beaut, I was getting a bit of lag but hopefully thats just in forge. When I get some customs going with my friends later on i'll get a chance to play it and give you some more feedback and praise then. Until then I was hoping you would answer two of my questions. Ahem. You went about incorporating the trees, water and terrain amazingly well in your map. How do you begin laying something that precise out? And now that you've made me a fan of your work, when can I expect a new map from you? Get back to me on those two questions while I try to find something wrong with your map. ps **** these stair ****'s, keep those baby's don't compromise ****. Anyone who doesn't like them is clearly a paraplegic.
Thanks LTor for the kudos! One of the reasons I have always made maps in games is to allow others to enjoy them so its good to hear! v1.1 of the map does lag a ton in Forge but as I have said prior, during a 4v4 custom game in every mode but CTF, we had negligible lag save for 2 small spots where total map visibility is presented. Even in these spots, it didn't drop below playable levels. However, I can imagine this being a problem should Bungie consider this for MM. Taking some of Lightsouts' suggestions, I have managed to gain $800 back in budget that I will refrain from spending (its so hard to leave memory alone). About your question regarding the maps design around the tree and water: I first drafted a layout sketch with the general order of the atrium, side rooms and a tree in the middle. Then I flew around forge world, scouting for the possible tree that had no rocks or problem ground around it (I needed a flat surface). I also wanted it close to water to some degree for my veranda at the bottom of the map. The Reflecting pool in the courtyard was an addition I made once I realized it would work. Also a side note: Edit Coordinates and rotation snap are your best friends! As to new maps - I don't know when I will get to my next map but I do have a second map called Siege Breakers. It was my first attempt at Reach Forging and it is a very large-scale invasion map with a custom mode. Once Embassy is tweaked and versioned to a final release I will then move on but I want this thing as good as it can get for the yet-to-be-announced-but-hinted-at contest that Ske7ch is setting up.
I gotta say, not impressed. Aesthetically, yes, its beautiful, but the gameplay doesn't match. Its cramped, the Rocket spawn is ridiculous, not great flow, out of bounds are poorly marked (i.e. hard kill zone in easily accessible areas), and weapon balance leaves something to be desired as well. You can obviously forge, but overall, the DESIGN of this map is very lacking.
Good stuff I am going to be playing on this map soon I'm sure. I'm on his friends list and have been given a tour of the map and it looks like much fun and very detailed. Now that I'm done with a few maps gotta get into some custom stuff.
Thank you for your honesty! Can I ask how many people you played with to come to the "cramped" conclusion though? Many have played this and liked the flow - perhaps your taste in CQB is lacking? I know it is practically impossible to describe good/bad flow but just stating it without examples wont make it better. I agree that I am being zealous with my hard kill zones. Can you give me specific examples of times you felt the hard kill zones cheated you out of easily accessible areas? If so, I may be able to make them soft or change something up. About weapon balance - I will make a map overhead view with weapon spawns so everyone can see how each weapon has a counter and is accessible to blue/red easily. You just have to learn map positions. If you play a map a few times, don't expect to know how to play it right. With this being said - I am at work on v1.2 and it is coming along nicely! I thank everyone for their comments, criticisms, suggestions and most of all, downloads and likes. Sadly it will be reset once v1.2 comes out P.S. The rocket spawn is not ridiculous. It just takes some practice to acquire.
Hey man saw this map, and absolutely loved it, I downloaded the beta and adored it, the number of decorative "eye candy" is numerous, adding the feel of a bungie made map, and one made from coding not in forge world, this map along with impact are stunning, and the best ive seen on forgehub so far, my favirote part would be the seats, soon as i saw them i was like "BRACE OMG AWESOME!!!!" and i downloaded it and went into forge to figure out what you used to make the little tables next to it, i am currently working on a map called authenticity, its a free for all map, but also works with multi team and team slayer, and after making the foundation of the map, and was in the phase of decorations, i just felt myself pulled again and again to putting two seats in this one hallway i had built, and i wanted to inform/ask permission to use that splendid idea in my map, i will surely give you credit when i have to to upload it to forge hub, anyways my friends and i played on this map, and for aesthetics 10-10 absolutely no spawnkilling...except for a Basta** throw of a sticky by my friend from across the map, but surely thats a once in a lifetime thing so for gameplay i give you 9.5-10 only because its nearly impossible to make a perfect spawn map, but i assure you that you did a better job than bungie on boneyard for weapon placement 10-10 every power weapon counters eachpther so theres no uber pwnage camping anyways tip top overall 9.8-10 please respond so i can know whether to implement your seats into my map (only 2) anyways, looking forward to more by you peace dude!
I also immediately thought of Gemini when I saw this. I always felt like I was the only one who loved Gemini in H2, but it seems like now that Forge 2.0 has come out the underground Gemini fan club has really surfaced. Obviously, like so many have said, the aesthetics here are great. The map looks amazing. I'm going to download for a forge-through and maybe customs eventually, but I know I already have one concern. Is the rocket spawn jetpack only? Even if not, it seems difficult to get to. I know that was intentional, but there will always be players on your map who are not good at movement, and for better or for worse it is important to make your map fun for them as well as for pros. I'll give you more thoughts once I've had a look around. Until then, very nice map.
The rocket launcher can be obtained by hopping from the turret perch onto the antenna and over. It is not as difficult as it sounds but presents a challenge. Jetpackers can forgo this obstacle easily yes, but that is the strength of the jetpack just as armor lock can deflect said rockets. If enough people complain about the position (only 2 out of over 45 players plus comments here have questioned it so far) then I will perhaps move it. As one member here said, he liked that the free kills a rocket launcher provides are not easily attainable. Don't forget classic slayer as well - no jetpacks.