Didn't I already bring up micro-pathing a while back? It's not that any one spot needs it, but the entire map lacks it. The new castley path you added helps, but it's not enough. Also, from my experience, there are very limited long range fights, and they always happen in the same spot the same way. Like I was saying before, it's not really a problem with spellbound per se, but a problem with the style of map.
I just don't see how you can think that way - how people in a creative community can unironically be against creativity. Discounting something based on its premise alone comes off as pretentious and vain. You always say "Remakes are bad, room based are bad. donuts are bad. inverse are bad." Instead of "It's impossible to make this style of map interesting", how about "I have not seen a map of this style that has done this yet."There are more ways to play the game than ridiculously vertical asyms with teleporters and 20 damage boosts, and in the grand scheme of things those maps are going to be the least appealing to the largest amount of players anyway. Of course, Forge what you want, but don't pretend that you're reinventing the wheel when you don't even want to put effort into your map posts because "nobody will even care" to begin with. If there is a problem with a layout on a map, throw down solutions to fix it. If the layout doesn't have enough potential, then it can easily be redesigned. I view every map on a conceptual level and layouts are malleable within that concept. But I don't see the point in discrediting entire styles of maps based on some flawed perspective that they are inherently lacking in some way or another. It's childish edginess for the sake of being edgy and it just comes off as obnoxious. You never suggested any micro pathing for the map. All you and Multi said were that the rooms were simple and you always moved forward when you fought. Is there a problem with that? No, but that really isn't the full potential of the design. The change you and I did to blue was proof of how malleable it is. That particular change was ultimately bad for the map, but that doesn't mean it has to remain the way it is. I honestly don't care whether you like it or not. You don't even like Halo 5 so I don't care much for your opinion on gameplay in this game. I just want to know how you would do it differently.
The Halo community is big, varied and versatile. Years of different gameplay and map design has formed a fanbase with wildly different preferences. Of course, we can have healthy and logical debates based on what all has been good for the series as a whole and what has done more harm in the long run (**** bloom). But the fact remains nevertheless that you will always find someone who views the games differently. Some of you pride yourselves on breaking out of the mold to create interesting gameplay and I respect that. What I don't respect is when you hold that as the objective standard of map design and regard anything less than that ideology as inferior - intentionally or not - ESPECIALLY considering that your maps aren't even held to the degree you'd be implying to begin with. If you ask the average Halo player to weigh in, whether they are competitive or casual, they would both view it completely different than you do. For example, something that Xandrith liked about one of my maps was completely disliked by a few competitive players for the exact reason I put it on there. Another person who plays at a high level says Oblivion looks like an Infection map. What can you do? Again, Forge what you want. It's great that there are different preferences, and I'm glad that there are people who are redefining the way map design can be approached. Personally, I don't want to be that kind of Forger. I'm not good at fleshing out my own preferences, but I know exactly what I enjoy making and playing on, and that's what I'll continue to build. Obviously in a thread about honest feedback and opinions, there is going to be some disagreements. To reiterate, I don't care that people dislike my map, least of all Xandrith. All I'm doing is calling out narrow-mindedness. There is no such thing as "you can't make this interesting." That's not how progress is made.
I most definitely did say that the map, along with most terrain maps, lack micro-pathing from my perspective. I can have multi attest to that, or you could just go back and read it yourself. As for the so called "childish edginess" I guess I just won't comment. My opinions are my opinions, and I honestly don't understand why they're so offensive to you. I also don't understand the "reinventing the wheel" jab. I've never acted as If I were a great forger or made anything special. If you ask me, I'm only slightly above average, hence the minimal effort put into my map thread. I don't know if you're actually getting mad that I don't like spellbound or if I did something else, but either way I don't really care to get into a novel war.
I've never once said anything about room based maps sucking, symmetrical sucking, inverse sym sucking, and I don't think I ever will because that's not my opinion? So I'm not sure why you're throwing me in that hat. It's much more difficult to make an interesting symmetrical map, and that's pretty much where my opinion ends. If i don't favor someone's symmetrical maps it's because I haven't seen any good ones in this game. I haven't personally made the attempt towards a symmetrical design because in all honesty I don't know if I'm even a good enough designer to make a symmetrical map that would hold up to my own standards. It's hard for them to be unique visually and in gameplay. My opinion has always been, what's good is interesting, creative, and aggressive. If it's lacking any of those then I probably won't care for the map. I don't care for seeing the same boring **** most forgers pump out day after day (this isn't about you, just my general thoughts) because once one person accomplishes a type of map it's a proven ground. Why do we hate midship clones? That design pattern is historically the most proven and versatile design in the entire Halo franchise. It's because at this point it's boring as **** and anyone with a brain can create something of that caliber now. Because they're not creating it, they're just copying it. My entire opinion on level design literally stems from that ONE tendency. If you're not pushing yourself further and further in level design then what are you doing? If you hate midship clones then you should hate maps like Ravens Lair and Stigma just as much. This breaks down into 2 possible depredations. 1: you forge the style of map you enjoy playing, or 2: you're trying to push yourself to be a better level designer. If 1, that's ****ing great! Forge what you want all day and no one has the right to judge you, because we can all enjoy whatever the Hell we want to enjoy. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad there are forgers who are dedicated to remaking old maps because although I don't give a **** about them, some people do. I'm glad there are people who make middy maps, or honeycombs, whatever. Everyone has a preference. What gets to me is when people start spouting their design talents with very little under their belt. You think you're the greatest forger in Halo right now? That's fine with me, it's not even a conceited claim IF you have the work to back it up. APK jokes about it a lot, whether or not he's joking about being the greatest is beyond me, but in the case he's serious...how could be possibly make that claim when his single map in this game is a checkerboard design with rudimentary pathing? Purple Reign was impressive at the time on account of his excellent forging and piece usage, the design was never more complex than any other checkerboard he or Solo have shipped out. Someone who can make a design that constantly has new and interestingly crafted engagements done in fresh ways is deserving of that title moreso than a Stigma or Ravens Lair or Seclusion or Spellbound perfectionist a million times over. And that's not a knock on you, again, because that was never your goal. When I shared my concerns of spellbound it's because I KNOW you have the design and problem solving skills to make something that's actually unique. I've told both you and Solo this because SELFISHLY I just want to see things that impress me. I'd LIKE to see APK make something that blows my socks off, the same goes for Demption. I want to see a design in a block out form without a drop of aesthetics and absolutely fall in love with it and sit and stare at every engagement, and line of sight, and pathing choice because it's just something that pushes boundaries. Because frankly 99.99999% of maps that the forge community pumps out are so, so, SO boring to me. I've never knocked you on your design talents because I know what you're capable of, you just choose not to do it (which is frustrating for me lol, same for @SoloXIII ). There's very very few, if ANY forgers in the current community that I can actually say impresses me with their design skills consistently, off of the one-hit-wonder blow off. That's all I've ever wanted to do is to make a map that over and over pushes design boundaries. Do people who criticize Legion/Oblivion ACTUALLY think I couldn't sit here day after day and pump out Solo maps, or Stigma, or whatever on a near daily basis? That **** is like candy to me, I could throw together a honeycomb in a heartbeat because the rudimentary principles of map balancing to me at this point are cake. I don't struggle with imbalances, movement patterns, or most of the things most forgers still struggle with because I've been making maps for 9 years now. And I didn't really get into this flow until H2A where Trinity was probably my turning point, because frankly every single map I've made before then I look at now and am repulsed by how boring they were. If I'm not trying to make something new, then I'm not improving or doing anything remotely impressive as a designer, I'm just rehashing old designs that everyone knows will work. And that kind of forging to me, is pointless. Can you explain this? As far as I'm concerned, the designers in Halo that I actually believe have a brain have all told me they enjoy Oblivion (you, xandrith, several others etc) and apart from that I could give two shits what the rest of the community thinks, because the general community has no ****ing clue what they're talking about. The general community hates Halo CE and thinks Damnation is weird as ****, their opinions aren't relevant. When I make a map, I have gameplay goals. For Oblivion,1: I wanted to give the players the ability to play as fast as they humanly wanted to, 2: I wanted to make every single encounter on the map interesting no matter what, and 3: I wanted players (as always) to play the way they wanted. Oblivion wasn't made to the miniscule footprint of Snake Pit to force combat for the sake of being fast just because that's not how I forge (nothing against small maps, just not my style). I'm not going to force players to play fast just to play fast, but if they choose to do so they should be rewarded. The map cycles great, it scales in the opposite direction of the natural cycle to promote engagements in multiple spots, and even if players don't want to rush I've provided more than enough LOS to give players the option to provide pressure from across map. There's plenty of nades, and the power weapons are all geared towards flushing. I've given every possible opportunity to play aggressive and I think it's perfect honestly. The chapel is great towards unstructured natural cover play which more skilled players will thrive in, otherwise coordinated teams will probably utilize the LOS in the lava atrium much more effectively. And there's effectively no fight that happens on level ground outside the Chapel, which was geared towards the octagon style of play. As far as I'm concerned Oblivion is everything I could've ever wanted and more, if other people can't see that, that's fine. They can go **** themselves because I can't imagine there's a single person out there who's more harsh on gameplay than myself, and if I'm happy with my map then that's good enough for me.
I'm not offended. I just don't agree with you or the way you present your opinions as "be all end all". The wheel "jab" references the fact that you always reference how interesting a map is when you are commenting on it. And it just so happens that the most interesting maps to you are made by your circle of friends. You look like a groupie.
Most of what I said isn't to you directly but you share a lot of that viewpoint for the reasons you have just explained. I don't even disagree with most of it, but it comes off as narrow minded. Like when I asked you how I could make a donut interesting and you said "Why are you making a donut?" Uh... because I want to make an interesting donut? Is that not a challenge as a level designer in and of itself? Besides what's not unique about Spellbound? There is not a terrain map in this game with an atrium like that. I couldn't care less about the routes around it and I've wanted to redesign them for months. But every time I ask someone to tell me what they'd do differently, they say "the map is fine." or some other nonsensical feedback like "everything looks the same." Meanwhile the only people who agree with me have their heads too far up their own asses to actually suggest anything. I keep making threads like this because the smokescreens are ****ing annoying.
It's not the visuals. I suppose you could breakdown designs into two facets. The large scale design, and the small scale pathing. I've already told you I find the small scale pathing to be overly direct, A to B to C. The large scale is a single atrium map with wrapping pathways. I've liked different things about different versions you've made over the months but in the most current, I think the newest castle path through the doorway would probably be the maps highlight for me. I thought I explained this stuff a few weeks ago but I'm always available to chat, you know that. I hope that novel I typed up made sense.
Well I thought you were my friend, and I definitely don't drool over spellbound. (see this thread). It's the same with everyone, but it just so happens that a lot of the people I personally enjoy hanging out with or talking to are also great forgers. Within those boundaries I give even more harsh feedback, especially to Given and Multi. I think you're blowing this whole thing way out of proportion. Is everything alright?
Gee, who could have known a thread about brutally honest feedback would end up this way? And I just want to say thanks for the words on your thoughts of Snake Pit, hearing things more specific than "I like it" or "It sucks" helps with some design choices I'll make in the future.
It made sense but you still have not explained what you would do different Most of the people who are capable of giving valuable feedback on map design dislike 99% of map designs. And you didn't say this when I posted the map because???? Perhaps because this site has an garbage ass review system where people refrain from posting their actual opinions on maps?
I ONLY give feedback to people I know can handle it, if I've ever just said "I like it" I probably didn't like it lol. You're a good enough friend to where I know you'll handle my feedback better than most, even if you don't agree with it. Within the confines of a symmetrical map, there's a lot I like and a lot I dislike about snake pit. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a fan of making a map for the sake of making it fast, I always believe that should be a choice given to players. Beyond that, I'm willing to discuss everything over xbox if you'd like Your new library map does look excellent though, no bullshit.
I wasn't giving you guys ****, I was being serious, lol. I'm totally content with how it is playing right now, I'm just fishing for opinions on things I did on it that I might iterate upon in other maps.
Bit of a random question; but why is there an open hallway that's blocked off with an invisible wall on Oblivion? It looks like any other playable hallway but it just stops you a couple of steps in.
I only played it once because I don't play Infection, but I liked it, so there's that. Did you descale it yet? --- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2016 --- **** the map page. Maps need to be moved back in forums where you can actually discuss them.