Here's where you're wrong. The OP, and myself, do not want a perfect Forge map. We most certainly do not want to be pitied. All we are saying is that Sandbox could have been better. It is not a moan; it is not a complaint. It is merely harmless contemplation.
Witty, Sweeny, Witty. Let me ask you something. Do you think asking for smooth, flat walls is an unreasonable demand? Do you think asking for a thicker Sky Bubble grid is an unreasonable demand? Do you think asking for regular object hitboxes is an unreasonable demand? Do you think that asking for a larger ground floor is an unreasonable demand? I did not suggest that an unlimited budget canvas was a reasonable demand. I did not suggest that aesthetic is more important than gameplay. Could Bungie have made Sandbox a whole lot better? Yes. With little effort? Yes. So here's the deal. Why don't you stop putting words in my mouth, making incorrect assumptions, and trying to prove that my opinions are wrong. Smooth, flat walls would make it easier for me to Forge. Regular object geometry would improve the flow and gameplay of my maps. A larger ground floor would give me more freedom in creating a large map. In that sense, these baseball analogies and all asscociated demeaning drivel are completely irrelevant. You can laugh to your heart's content, but know that I cannot be proven wrong.
Allow me repeat the message that I have been trying to get through your thick little skulls. STOP COMPLAINING. YOUR REQUESTS AREN'T REASONABLE. BE HAPPY YOU EVEN HAVE FORGE, AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. There, hopefully it will finally sink into your heads, that there are somethings Bungie can't do, and you have to accept that. Forge was NEVER supposed to be a full-blown map creator. Your treating this situation as if Halo was supposed to have a Map Editor like Far Cry 2's, but Bungie gave us it's half-retarded little brother instead. Be happy you even have Foundry and Sandbox, and go back to forging.
How on God's green earth is asking for smoother walls unreasonable? The walls of Foundry were difficult to work with. We tell Bungie so. Bungie could have saved themselves some trouble and just created flat walls, but they thought it would be a good idea to make them all irregular. There are most certainly some things that Bungie can't do. But smooth walls? If they couldn't do that they wouldn't be in business.
Your obvious missing the point. Regardless if smoother walls are reasonable or not, you can't change what Bungie has already made, so crying about won't do anything. I will say this one last time: BE HAPPY YOU EVEN HAVE FORGE. Because, to me, it just looks like your finding nominal things to cry about.
I wish there were more "movable" objects on sandbox to make. Like boxes and forklifts for example. Thats the only thing I don't like about sandbox.
Sandbox is very useful for making Scenes for a machinima. E.g. you can make a wall of "Block, Tiny", it'll fit in with the other walls and you can drive straight through it. Also, with the same brick you can make a wall on a race course too slow players down.
This thread has created some rivalry between people. Why not just discuss the topic of the positives of sandbox is instead of putting down all the negatives and getting people angry. It makes no sense to keep replying to other peoples comments and critiscizing each other over and over for 3 pages. CHILL
That's funny, I had the opposite feeling. Sandbox was pretty much exactly what I was expecting, and despite it's flaws it still far surpasses Foundry for me.
Yeah, Sandbox has it's ups and it's downs. But you seem to only have bad things to say about it. Sure, every object is a bumpy mess with no aesthetic value at all, and sure. There may not be that many movable objects, and the crypt might suck a lot. But oh well, this is what they have dealt us. It's not like they can just go back in and fix this wall glitch, change each object, and change the crypt walls. right? For the second time in my life, I agree with The Cheat. : )
I wish you could choose if the top part has a floor or not. That way you don't have to waste all your money making a floor for the map your making. I think if I would ever make a map on sandbox, it would be in the middle. It just seems like the easiest place to make a map.
I pride myself to make sure every being I pass utters those words. They are smooth, and flat. Unless you are talking about the crypt. Then sure, it is slightly irking that they aren't, but they are still better than Foundries. Why? Because Foundry's had small little juts at the bottom, so while attempting to place an item as close against this as possible, it would tilt, and when it settled it would not be as close to the protrusion as it could be. In Sandbox, the walls might be bumpy, but they are consistent in how far they stick out. Here is a little "txt" picture. Foundry: | / Sandbox (Ignore period): [ \ .| / [ Thickness has nothing to do with it, and since you can't seem to figure this out yet, I'll just explain this as simply as I can. Have you ever been placing an object against 2 braces in foundry, or any other map for that matter, and have it fly past your braces causing much frustration? This is due to Forge's script. Your two braces probably had a gap between them, and you were aiming at that gap. Now the exact reason why this would be is somewhat difficult to explain, so I'll just give you a lay-mans way of saying this (although not necessarily correct, it will work at explaining). Forge places objects that you are holding at the closest place of solid geometry of which your reticle is aiming at. This is to keep objects from constantly going past each other as you place them. However, if you look at the gap between the two objects, then Forge is not sensing those two bracers there, and it's new target for placement is what lies beyond that gap. How does this relate to Sandbox's Sky grid? The sky grid is not a solid piece of geometry. It only is solid to select items on the Forge List, but is not permanent. So, if you are attempting to place an object against another while in the sky box, and your reticle is pointed at the sky grid, Forge will treat the temporary floor just like that gap aforementioned and push items through it to the nearest bit of solid geometry. This would be the sand dunes of the middle tier, but objects can only go so far from the player, so they won't go all the way down. So you can make the Sky Grid Floor as thick as you want, but it won't change the fact that it is not a permanent piece of the map, and is not 100% permanent while forging either. In fact, a thick floor might make things worse, with items getting stuck in the floor, resulting in a bit of tugging to pull them back out. Hopefully this all makes sense to you, and you will see that such a request is unreasonable, because it won't fix anything. I would have to assume you didn't bother reading that article I linked you too? Sigh, now I am going to have to explain this as well. You might get it, as long as your brain isn't total mush from the above answer, though chances are it will be after this. An engineer at Bungie explained that items tilted in forge for the very simple reason of keeping small file sizes. Items would shift in relation to the direction of their "tear drop" as we like to call it, repositioning themselves to prevent too the usage of too much space. I can go into how this saves space, but just know that items slightly adjust themselves after a save. What does this have to do with the hit boxes being slightly larger than the items themselves? To provide room for such tilts to occur. Keep in mind, Bungie never had any plans for forge to turn into what it did, and in the Pre-DLC maps items were (for the most part) moveable (save teleporters and weapon holders) and therefor could not merge together without pushing the other. So, when this transferred over tot he current items we have this day, they are made with enlarged hit-boxes to allow movement for such shifts to occur, because according the the game's script, items can't merge with one another (even though we now know that they can). So again, this is a scripting issue, but Bungie has fixed it a good deal, because items don't have as much space between them as they did in Foundry. I already explained why this is, because people can't make use of the size they have already. If you really need a larger playing field, you can easily incorporate the dunes, as I have said. Actually, you kind of did. And of those things on my list of demands people had (not all of them being unreasonable, seeing as they are in Sandbox currently) was Infinite Budget and Object Limit. However, the only one you pointed out as being understandably unreasonable was the ability to turn on and off "interlocking mode". So yes, you pretty much said that, or at least did a poor job adequately explaining what you thought was reasonable and unreasonable. Either way, your error. Yet you sure made a fuss about aesthetics. About how items were boring to look at, and how the OP was maybe "mature" and like yourself (I would have to assume you share in every opinion of the OP, seeing as how you try to defend him so) , did not want to try and make an aesthetically pleasing map on Sandbox. So for giving a **** about gameplay, you sure talked a lot about aesthetics. Could Bungie have made Sandbox a whole lot better? No. Could our ridiculous demands have been implemented with little effort? No. Correction: Know that your opinion cannot be swayed. Because, in a discussion such as this, there is no right or wrong. It all comes down to matter of opinion. Maybe my ingenious use of "drivel" is irrelevant to your opinion, but it sure as hell is doing a great job at making you look like an whining idiot to everyone else. "Oh, don't so harsh sweeny!" Then don't bring your opinions onto the internet. Opinions are just that, opinions. Someone could have the opinion that rape is okay, but as soon as they publicly announce that opinion, they open the door to disapproval and criticism. So, if you are so eager to share your views with the world, you have better come prepared that people will trash them.
Don't worry, I am certainly very happy that we were even given Forge in the first place. Nonetheless, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to hold the opinion that it could be better. So I know that Bungie can and will not do anything about it; does that take away my right to agree with the OP and let him know of my opinion? Surely not. You were the one who chose to throw up a hissy fit when you saw that I was a little disappointed with what the really hard working guys at Bungie produced. I am disappointed. I understand that you are not. Let's leave it at that, shall we?
The people at Bungie have lives: families, children, parents, friends. They don't spend there lives on a computer making a game perfect.
I never said you weren't free to criticise my opinion, merely that you would not be able to change it. 'Swayed' would have been a better choice of words than 'proven wrong', my mistake. So Foundry's walls are worse than The Crypt's. What relevance does that actually have? Comparisons to Foundry don't serve to back up your argument, due to Foundry being flawed in the first place. See, protruding columns and irregular wall geometry do make it harder to forge. From an aerial perspective, the walls look like this (ignore the periods): .| .| / ] \ .| .| Exaggerated maybe, but the nature of the walls does necessitate the use of geomerging; something that is rather laborious what with the absence of door-like objects. Smooth walls would have saved many people much time and effort. As for the Sky Bubble: you're wrong. To objects, the gridded floor is essentially map geometry. If the floor had been as thick as the furthest it is possible to hold an object, they couldn't possibly pass through the grid because they would wind up in the middle of an object, albeit an invisible one. As for the ground floor: Blood Gulch cannot be remade. It would have required few resources due to the surrounding death barrier negating the need for canyon walls, but there simply isn't enough space. I think I can be the judge of whether there would be enough resources to create a big team map. You simply assume it would have to be detailed, therefore requiring large numbers of objects, therefore being impossible to create due to the object limit. As for the hitboxes: you misunderstand me (shock, horror!). It is not the fact that these hitboxes extend beyond an object that annoys me; rather that they are not in a regular pattern. This causes a player to bump and bounce whilst moving, and in some cases, grenades and dropped weapons can disappear through gaps. This is detrimental to the flow and ultimately enjoyment of a map. I made no reference to the demand for unlimited budget. Yet you construed that as an indicator that I didn't think it an unreasonable demand. Why? Because that's what you wanted to think. Confirmation bias and what-not. I do think that Sandbox's objects are ugly. I did make a fuss about it. I also made a fuss about object geometry and its negative effect on gameplay. But despite valuing gameplay above aesthetic, I can't say I don't enjoy playing beautiful maps. Nor can I see a problem with that. Now we will have to agree to disagree about exactly how taxing such 'demands' would have been; I'm no engineer, but it does seem painfully obvious that making a flat wall would not have required much effort on Bungie's part. But I am certain that if met, these 'demands' would have exponentially increased Sandbox's potential and made forging on it much more efficient.
Which is why the people who aren't lazy have maps that stand out above yours, or anyone else too lazy to care for the quality of their map. Actually he's right. Sure it may be annoying, but I appreciate having three mediums to Forge on. Maybe you will learn to be grateful someday. You do not need to fill the map with ****. I would much rather play an open BTB map than one full of a shitload of well, ****. I N T E R L O C K G E O M E R G E Things are be implied, you know. It's often a safe assumption when someone implies something. At least usually, last time I checked. Well I think you're ugly. You are obviously quite superficial, which is kinda sad, considering these are virtual objects in a Video Game. But as a more serious response to your opinion: Sure, one piece may be "ugly." But its all about a combination of things that will make a map look beautiful. Whatever happened to Inner Beauty anyways? Uh oh, I'm getting back into the "superficial" thing. Flat walls are "ugly." And its Bungie's attempt to make a very simple map look aesthetically pleasing, while at the same time being a functional Forge map. So a comprimise has to be made. What is with people and complaining so much? Nobody is forcing you to play Halo, or Forge. So if you if you have a problem with it, go play COD or Gears or something. Or maybe, get a life, a job, a girlfriend, (or boyfriend if thats you're thing, it makes no difference to me) and stop bitching about soemthing that you are lucky to have in the first place.
My god, people. Please just stop bitching about Sandbox, it's a great forging map. Sure, objects may pass through the geometry in the Skybox, but who really cares? It takes about 3 seconds to fix. What do you mean uneven walls? If you mean the forgable ones, they are smooth and even. If you're talking about the ones in the crypt, who cares? The major part of it is high up and doesn't affect gameplay. If it truly does, take 2 mintutes to merge it into the wall. It's not that hard. You people are very contradicting. First you complain about how it's not aesthetically pleasing, then you turn around and say you don't care about aesthetics but gameplay instead. You then turn around and say that aesthetics should be better once again. The aesthetics fit the map, it's not like you're going to have random green human boxes in a forunner desert. No, Porkstein, you did not suggest that an unlimited item limit was a reasonable idea. Oberlin, the person he was referring to, did. Miss the crate? There's an object about the same size that is movable as well, so stop complaining. Miss the cones? Who gives a ****. Is it the cones that make the map or the map that makes a map? You tell me. Sure, Sandbox has its downsides. For one, there's no door that makes merging easier. First of all, merging was a glitch. It wasn't intended. Second of all, you can still merge with boxes, and in my mind that works better than doors. Complaining about size? Sandbox is actually pretty big. It may not be a BTB map, but that's what other maps are for. If you got exactly what you were asking for (which isn't going to happen) you'd still find something to complain about. If it was perfectly straight and even, people would say it was too bland. If they added flavor to the map, people would complain about how everything wasn't perfectly straight like you are right now. Some things you don't understand : As The Cheat said, forge wasn't made to be a full blown MAP editor. It was an object editor. Glitches made it possible to be more of a map editor, so now that's what it is. Don't complain about how you have to use the glitches that make forge what it is today. To the OP, you say that Sandbox is harder to think of ideas for becaus of many things. One factor is size. When given an open area such as the skybubble, you have no ideas to work with. You have a completely blank canvas. So how does having a perfect blank canvas help you think of more ideas? Look at what we did with foundry. We made completely awesome maps with it. If we could manage to make awesome maps with foundry, and all of the flaws it has, we can make even better maps with Sandbox, which has less flaws and is much better than foundry. Oh, and to everyone who said that Sweeny's reference to foundry was irrelivent, it wasn't. He was trying to make the point that with all of the flaws that foundry had, we dealt with it. We made awesome maps on it, and we can do the same thing with Sandbox. Wall of text ended.
Forge =/= Map Editor Of course The Crypt could have flat walls, I do think its a pain to forge nears the walls, BUT would be quite ugly if they did it flat. And I dont think the mid floor is too small. Sometimes I think it's too big. And Sandbox textures > Foundry.
Porkstein, you seem to be doing a great job. As indicated by the above 3 posts, members are flocking to your side! I mean, rehashing of the same argument regardless of newly stated facts and opinions seems to be the way to go. Perhaps I should take note? But in spite of your clear and decisive victory, I do have issues with one thing you said... As for your opinion: it's ****. See how easy it is to make simple sentence points? However, mine has more truth behind it than your own, because you have yet to address such an issue, while I already have explained thoroughly why the Sky Bubble is the way it is. Regardless, I am going to do what you should have done. As for your opinion: it's ****. While it is true that we are all entitled to our opinions, yours is simply a shitty one. Live by it, by all means, but just know that you aren't right, and very few support you. You go around in circles with your points, and never directly address those of anyone else. And, for the times that you actually do, your opinion is poorly informed. I clearly explained why the Sky Floor has the issue it does, and you simply say "you're wrong" just as I knew you would. Believe it or not, I had this very post outlined in my head (turns out I am not that bad at evaluating people, huh?) However, you go on to say that "you are no engineer", but you can simply state that my explanation in regards to game programming is wrong? See, you fail to the grasp logic and reason that I lay out right before you, because you know that it does, in fact, make your requests and aspirations seem unreasonable. And just like the Sky Floor point, you completely toss aside my point about hit-boxes, providing an absurd explanation that is untrue, only to say later you are no game expert (if I couldn't have figured that on my own however, I would have to have placed myself in the same mental institution that you belong in). You completely missed my point about hit detection, and can't seem to even understand how these things work. Hit-boxes, without them objects would just pass right through one another. So, game developers place hit-boxes (invisible tools that define an object as a solid) that are encasement of the general shape of an object. So for Sandbox's Double Boxes, they may appear to have curves, but these little indentations are not actually apart of the hit-box, which is a perfect rectangle around the Double Box. These hit-boxes only affect the collision between two objects, which is why you can't always place items close together, resulting in "cracks" that grenades go through. These hit-boxes are not smaller do the Forge's scripting, as to allow these objects movement post saving, in order to allow more content to be stored as I have said. I have just re-iterated my point, and you will still say I am missing yours. Just know, that I am not. Let me summarize. Hit-boxes feature no bumps, even though the object may. A rectangular object has a rectangular hit-box. A spherical object has a spherical hit-box. It goes on and on. Sometimes, hit-boxes feature more detail, such as the hole within the Tin Cups, instead of having a flawless dome. However, the bump that happens between 2 interlocked items is the result of the scripting of actual player movement. Fixing this would risk the destruction of the entire game. As for grenades, the same applies to these. But, their hit-boxes are not overly large, but are slightly smaller than the grenade itself. Therefor, they go through cracks much easier. But this all traces back to, "if you throw a grenade into a crack, it is your own damn fault unless that was the location you had aimed for". You say that we put words into your mouth and unjustly say that you don't appreciate forge. I am not saying you don't appreciate forge, but I am saying that you whine like a bunch of children. I could appreciate that lolly pop but I can still whine for a second one. But my issue isn't that your discontent with Sandbox, it's that your discontent with Bungie, and have made extreme "points" to satisfy your inner monster. You yourself said: Translation: Bungie can do a better job, but they won't because they don't care about their fans. And no, I am not putting words into your mouth at all. Any logical person would agree with me and my translation. Not to mention that you said previously: Which is saying that Bungie doesn't give a **** about their community, they only care to the extent that it will make them money. Again, you dismiss something I said long ago: Forge is only a small part of the Halo Community, and the majority of players don't give two shits about forge. So what does all this say about you? You block facts that go against your point when you have no defense, and attack other points with made up explanations. But to put you into words is even a task I cannot handle. Why type 1000 words when I can just use a picture instead? I hereby conclude my explanation of why your opinion (and you yourself for that matter) is ****.
This thread is hilarious but seriously break up the fighting and actually post about the topic. I don't think this thread was called DEBATE HERE ABOUT RANDOM STUFF. Sandbox is the best forge map that the communities gonna get. What is up with the picture anyway Sweeny that is random. Just saying.