Debate Determinism vs Freewill

Not many people like the notion of determinism- we don't like to think that some external force is controlling our lives, be it society, a divine force, or even our own upbringings. It's my belief that the very fact we question whether we have free will determines that, to some degree, we do...

...But not entirely. As has been demonstrated many times in the past, we are very much products of our environments. A North American man is far different from an Eastern European man or a Japanese man, not simply in race but also in societal behaviours and ideas. To a great degree, we are reigned in by social norms and dominant ideologies.

It is for this reason that I propose the debate between free will and determinism of any sort is a false dichotomy- it's not a black and white issue at all. Now, a strong proponent of either end of the spectrum will likely posit at this point that I've not yet argued my case convincingly. So, without further ado, here it is.

It is difficult to argue for either position- an awareness of the determinism vs. free will debate also makes one aware of a certain interconnectedness- an intricate, labyrinthine complexity in our day to day lives; every action taken since the beginning of time lead to another action, which lead to several more actions, and each of those actions lead to other situations, until what we have is a gargantuan web of cause-and-effect.

Determinists propose that all of our actions are pretedermined. This could be a result of many things: Large social forces, our upbringing, our heritage and geneology, or even some divine being. What causes predetermination is unimportant. The important thing is the idea that we are simply living marionettes, unaware that we are being subtly controlled.

With this in mind, it should be rather easy, when observing a human being, how they will react in any given situation, correct? If we know everything there is to know about a man or woman, can we adequately predict exactly how they would respond to anything?

Incorrect. Determinism's greatest failing is that it does not have any defense against situations which show evidence of free will- it simply throws out some weak, hypothetical nonsense about one's 'background' or something such as that, and does not address the question any further. A theory that has no defense against those who oppose it is not a particularly strong one. Riddle me this: If determinism held true, would we really ever challenge the dominant ideology? Would Martin Luther King have ever given his famous speech? Would the woman's rights movement have ever happened? (Note that I'm focusing entirely on societal determinism here).

But simply because Determinism is not the be-all-and-end all of human choice, that does not mean there isn't still truth to it. Human beings are largely influenced every day by subtle forces without even realizing it. Turn on the TV, and be bombarded by advertisements. Go outside, and you've got to follow the laws and norms of whatever society you call home. We often follow and listen to these expectations without even realizing there is a difference in them.

 

Maybe some outside force played the whole situation (Martin Luther King Jr., Women's rights, etc.) in order to make it exactly like it is today. I guess we can debate this issue solely on ideological beliefs since we don't have evidence to prove or disprove either. I think I can counter your claim on not being able to predict a human's actions even if you know everything about them Azrius. You seem to think that this outside force that affects our lives exactly the way it wants us to is mortal and thinks the way we do. I don't want to turn this debate into an "intelligent design" debate but my question is: if some force created us, every aspect of us from all our ancestors and shaped the way we grew up, wouldn't it be able to predict our futures? You say no, but I say yes because if you start to roll a ball then you are going to know where it is going to go. Now, I know Human beings (and for that matter, existence) are much, much more complicated than that, but if there was a force that was able to create everything we experience today, I would think it would be able to play out our lives the way it wants us too.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not religious.

 

Hmm....I didn't really touch on Divine Determinism aside from acknowledging it as a form of determinism. I didn't mean to imply that whatever force determined our actions was mortal, either, or even conscious. I'll counter your rolling ball example with the following: What if the ball hits a small nick in the ground that you did not expect it to strike, and changes direction?

Ehh, I'm not really on top of things right now. I'll return later to try to formulate a more suitable response.

 

Well, I disagree with the opening definition of determinism. Determinism theory doesn't say that things happen for a reason. They just happen down a certain path of events.

ANYWAY, I'm more pro-determinism, mainly because I view it from a physics/chemical perspective. The whole "if you know everything about particle A and particle B, and they collide, you'll know what the outcome is". If you apply this to the universe, then theoretically you can predict what the outcome of all atomic collisions are. And hence know exactly where everything will be in the next moment, and therefore know everything about everything at that moment, and be able to apply the theory again.

Of course this is impractical, and I think to know everything about this universe without affecting it, you would need to be outside the universe.

But this is all fun to theorise about, but to really conceive that there is no free will is pretty much impossible. Cos that would mean you'd believe your conscious self don't really exist.

Crazy stuff.

Edit: Oh, and for those of you who think that determinism has to be a conscious thought process or happening. Its not, it just is the occurrence of collisions and reactions of atoms within the universe. The idea of ones conscious self has to be taken out of the equation to truly understand determinism.

 

I think the problem with both of the ideas is that they assume there is some higher intelligence (not god, just some kind of 'plan') that is laying out plans or allowing us to do what we want.
In reality, we are just a collection of elementary particles, acting in such a way as to appear conscious. So, deep down inside, we have no control- the universe is random (Quantum Mechanics says so), and we are just as in control as any other pile of matter; be it a rock, a tree, or another person.

 

I believe both, combined.

I believe that everything has the same end result, but the path we take to get there is our own decision to make.

 

if everything was planned who planned it but who isnt the question as much as why did they plan it this way for things to happen as they do why wouldd they take the time and thought into how exact everything is but also if everything wasnt planned how did everything happen so perfectly that there is life but going back to the planned theory who made the maker because evrything had to be made somehow

 

I have a question for those who would argue, or have already argued in favor of determinism. How does this idea affect your conception of judgment? Does it not make it hard to believe that people should be punished for their actions if you feel that these actions are dictated by external forces?

It makes it hard for me. I'm starting to come around to the idea that choice and free will are illusions. All the reasons have been said before... the nature and nurture and whatnot. Decisions and actions have reasons, always. To say that something was done for no reason is either A.- said for effect or B.- being too lazy / unknowledgeable to analyze it.

So how how do we judge other people? We can't, I believe. I think all forms of blame and regret are misplaced sentiments, but totally understandable for people who don't accept this idea.

Did anybody ever have to read a book called A Separate Peace in school? I did, and I hated it, but the book puts an interesting perspective on this topic.

 

It's just too radical to be said that everyones lives are affected by determinism. There are to many active variables for fate to predict.

What one person does may affect every body around them, and a whole series of events may occur because of this slight change in a variable. Maybe if you thought about it as chaos theory as in everything doesn't look like it's making sense but it's all predetermined in the end well that's just too complicated. Again, it's controlled by your decisions.