Debate The Pen, Mightier than the Sword??

I'm confused about what you want debated... could you rephrase it, or give an example for those of us having a slow day? I'm guessing that you mean should America try diplomatic solutions, rather than war?

If thats it: In my opinion, in our current day and age, for western countries, it is hardly necessary to go to war, unless staging an intervention.

"There is only one thing greater than both the pen and the sword.
The pen knife."
-Me
Just thought I'd throw that in there. =P

 

I also am not quite sure what you're trying to get at, please rephrase it?

 

The main question he aimed for debating was:
Do actions speak louder than words?


So, what's more impacting on the world, what sends your message?
Is it a moving speach or a delcaration of war, or the dropping of a bomb.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I believe he wanted.

 

Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

 

I believe, the question has a much deeper meaning. Our genetic make-up and the way we were raised impact our personalities immensely. As children we pick up many things our parents do. So we learn. Now, imagine how people were raised in different cultures. These cultures may have a different religions, may find eating dogs fine, and have a different world view. Biggest point is they are raised differently.
Now, with so many different beliefs, different perspective, different ways to be brought up how do we make peace with words? We can't, because everyone views the world differently. This is why we make war and perhaps invade or bomb another country, because to us actions speak louder than words.

 

If you have no credibility, words are useless, but actions always retain their value

 

I'm sure we'll agree on something eventually

 

Do actions speak louder than words?

[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Well done is better than well said. ~Benjamin Franklin

Speech is a very powerful tool for us. It is a way that humans can convey all of our thoughts across to other people. Via diplomacy it is a way of exerting yourself and trying to convince someone to side with you. Due to the title of the thread "The Pen, mightier than the Sword?" it seems logical to think of words in a diplomatic situation between two factions opposed.

The pen and words are a very useful tool they have allowed people throughout history to convey ideas quickly to overs. The whole point of writing something or saying it is that someone else will read or listen to it. The problem really lies in what the dispute is over. If one party is determined to achieve its goal and is capable of doing so then the word can often be powerless. Words can be a bluff or there is a margin for misunderstanding or mis-interpretation. This is something that is much less of a problem with action or the 'Sword'.

An action is often a commiment to words said at an earlier stage or just a sequence of events that happen because someone made them happen. A person's actions can be mis-interpreted but an action is much more likely happening for a clear reason. Action has a strength that words can never find. You can tell someone you like them but often another person will only truely come to believe that when you spend time with them.

Words are most powerful when used with brinkmanship; to bluff or threaten someone. If the bluff is called then the person who has only words and no actions will find themselves in a disadvantaged situation because they cannot back up what they say or write. Time to throw in another couple quotes this time a chinese proverb and a quote from Lewis Cass (American Politician and Military Officer):
[/FONT][FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]
Talk doesn't cook rice. ~Chinese Proverb[/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do. ~Lewis Cass[/FONT]

Those two quotes really hit home at why the pen is not mightier than the sword. The earlier parts of the post have been rambles of some sort but they do serve a purpose of trying to help you understand what i want you to see in these quotes i have chosen. No matter how much people say and write down is will always be what people do that changes the world for better or worse.

Actions make the world progress, words make the world dream of progression. Words are idealistic, actions are pragmatic. After all is said and done, a lot more will have been said than done. But it what has been done that will be remembered.[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]

SeNTiNeL
[/FONT]

 

Very, very well said.


Whilst words can be very moving and inspiring, actions(some sorts) can ensight fear.
Fear is why a lot of things in history happened.

Words can last an eternity but you cannot relive a bombing or an assassination.


This is one of the better debates available at the moment here.

 

The US only should declare war if the country doesn't listen to us.

 

How do we interpret actions? One culture believes a hand shake is sacred the other believes it's a sacrilege. We convey what our actions mean through words and indeed carry out our actions with others through the power of words. Minor conflicts and scuffles between ourself and nature require no words. However, when it comes to humans conflicting with other humans words must be used to delay the action or gather other humans to carry out the action with you. Words and actions contain a parasitic relationship. Without actions you can still have words and without words you can still have actions, but the full effect of the action is only expressed through words.

Words are what make men honorable, words are what make us honest, words are what advance our civilization. Words are what gave us the ability to create this site, the action of creation was sparked by the pen or rather, in our case, the keyboard.

I'm not saying action are weaker than words, I'm not saying words should be any more regarded than actions. I'm just saying *omitted due to extreme propheticness*

 

I really have to question some of the things you have said here. How do words make men honourable? This is such a general sweep of language that it helps to undermine your argument. To me honourable means good intentions and clearly words, which are a tool of communication, deliver both good and bad intention. On a quick side note I should bring up here again how words can be interpreted in many ways i.e. the interpretation of honourable I just made.

Words are what make us honest? Then what is a lie, a lie is surely far from honest.

Words are what advance our civilization. The argument for this is not particularly strong. In what way has it been words that have advanced us and not an action? I will grant you one thing. Words as a form of communication allow a discovery to spread but, and its a big but, the whole centre of the actual advance is an action; be it a discovery of something new or an adaptation of something that already exists.

The creation of this site is not because of words. It was made because someone chose to make it. They then acted upon that decision and did whatever string of actions necessary to bring the site into existence. The words on this page are nothing ore than the consequence of an action. Words rely on actions because actions are necessary to form words.
Definition of action: An act that one consciously wills and that may be characterized by physical or mental activity
Definition of word: A unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation that functions as a principal carrier of meaning.

I would not personally describe the relationship between words and actions to be parasitic. Parasitic relations between actions and words would be to say that the relationship is one sided with one benefiting from the other with nothing in return. The relationship is more one of interdependency but where one partner, actions, has a stronger and more dominate role.

 

hon·or·a·ble - of high rank, dignity, or distinction; noble, illustrious, or distinguished.

dig·ni·ty - bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.

Yes. In the same way actions can make us peace-keepers and war mongers.

Congrats, you just cured cancer. I want you to convey your results to your peers without speaking or making any noises. Don't write it down, don't use sign language.

You probably won't get very far with that. Oh well, just order the materials so you can make the cure yourself... Well damn. Your screwed then aren't you? You can't communicate with them either.

The creation of this site could have only taken place after a discussion that gave us the ability to coordinate our actions. These actions would seem silly if done alone, but done in unison they meant the difference between having Forge Hub and not having it.

Of course there is an action that stimulates speech. However, that is arguing past the point. The point being the act of communicating is mightier than the act of acting.

The correct term is symbiotic. Words would be the greater or the two in this relationship.

 

I am not arguing that actions are always good. That I never said and I believe this branch of the argument should be dropped because it has no relevance. We are not arguing the morals and ethics of words and actions but their importance.

Well there is always the option to show a person, requiring no communication but a sequence of actions that they see, but this is not really the point. What I was trying to argue is that, to use your cure for cancer as the example, if you developed a cure for cancer the process of developing the cure was a sequence of actions and not words. Therefore it is the action that has caused this advancement. Communication is a useful way of spreading ideas, I will not deny that, but it is not what makes things happen.

This whole argument can very legitimately be taken to the very foundation of life itself. Before speech and writing were developed as a way of communicating ideas creatures such as **** erectus and later the most primitive **** sapiens lived through actions. They shared their tools and taught others how to make them using actions alone. The point of bringing this up is that actions are timeless; words are just a creation of Man. To bring back a quote from my first post. “Talk does not cook the Rice.” What is the greatest achievement on the planet? Life; it has to be life. How did life survive? Through actions not through words. No matter how important communication becomes in our society it was ultimately actions that brought us here and actions that will move us forward. Therefore actions must be mightier than words.

 

Throwing this in here.

If words fail, then we use actions. IE Trying to communicate to another country to stop slaughtering many of its own people. They refuse no matter how convincing our argument is. We then invade and take care of the government, etc.

If actions fail what happens?

 

i've got to say the pen is only mightier then the sword because the sword cannot write and writing is an action so if you are going by actions vs words then actions still win while words are lost after they a spoken unless written down but then the pen is mightier then sword because actions are forgotten unless written down but hey that is just my philosophy and twisted logic on subject really the statement is no different then saying a tree fals in the forest no one is there to heardoes it make sound it all depends on your defination of sound

 

Interesting points, Nitrous and Sentinel. I like the symbiotic (is that really the correct term? symBIOtic?) idea you brought up about the relationship of words to actions. Just in an attempt to process what you both might be saying: action is universal, but communication is a powerful tool that a few species have made use of to amplify the significance of action. Without communication, action only accomplishes what it appears to. I hit Robert. The only result is Robert is hurt. With communication, actions send messages. The result: Robert is hurt and violence is advocated.

Anyway, I want to tackle this from the OP:

Little story: I just spent some time trying write my thoughts on this topic. I soon realized that I was heading towards a long, proof-read and finely edited paper that no one would read. Some of you might. But I get pissed off when I see such a long post, and usually don't read them.

Let me try again-

I don't think war is necessary. It seems to be inevitable, though. Ohhh what a hard question. You have to go case-by-case. You think you can assign blame to one side, say it was their fault for being greedy, and the war came about from greed and ambiton, not necessity. But it's never that simple. There's so many different perspectives, untold stories, unheard voices that the real causation is obsucred by the official story. The victor writes the history.

I'm going to have to stop here....

 

I think war, sadly, is needed to solve disputes. Not always of course. There will always be that idiot that can only see what is directly in front of them, someone who is greedy or has lust for power and control. It is these people that cannot see beyond their own needs that cause these problems.

Sometimes people cannot understand words.... and thats when a smack to the back of the head works wonders.