So I don't eat meat. Or eggs or cheese or dairy. I haven't for about a year and a half. This discussion is about vegetarianism / veganism. FIRST THINGS FIRST If your stance is 'to hell with that, I'm a carnivore', consider this a read-only thread for you. I'll give you a hard time if that's all you have to say. If your stance is 'I eat meat and nothing will change that, but let's talk about it', welcome to the discussion. My goal is not to convert anyone to a different diet. It's a personal choice for me, and I admit that I would like for others to make the same choice, but in the end it's not up to me. My main concern here is to help people make informed decisions. Many people have no idea what happens to their food before they ever see it. Some think they know, but actually do not. Some are fully aware of the process but do not think that animal suffering matters. If this is the case, fine. I emphatically disagree, but I understand that moral issues are very debatable. I am far less tolerant of ignorance, especially if it's by choice. And since all of you who are reading this have access to the videos posted below, there is no excuse. If you choose to ignore them, you are engaging in willed ignorance. My argument breaks down into 3 parts. 1 is human biology (not an argument itself, but enables and strengthens 2 and 3), 2 is environmental, and 3 is animal abuse. 1. There is actually an argument that humans are physiologically built to be herbivores, not omnivores. It has to do with the length of our intestinal track (I'm not a fancy "scientist" type so I'll leave it at that). We evolved to dominate the animal world and started eating what we damn well wanted to at an early stage, but the point is there is no reason why our bodies can't be fully nourished by an all plant diet. ADA statement on the legitimacy of vegetarian/vegan diet Herbrivores or omnivores? 2. For centuries, humans ate meat and anything else they could find for survival reasons. Until relatively recently, people didn't really have the luxury of being selective with their diet. This is no longer the case. Agricultural technology has reached the point to where the entire population of the planet can be supported. In fact, raising animals for food is highly inefficient. In other words, way more food and water goes into feeding the livestock than comes out of the slaughterhouse. People eat meat because of cultural up-bringing. There are a number of serious environmental problems created by industrialized farming and fishing. source on efficiency of nutrients post by BattyMan about environment 3. The grim meat-hook reality. The third reason is the kicker. I'm not going to elaborate on the conditions of slaughterhouses, but how many of you are aware that virtually all beef in grocery stores and restaurants in the US comes form a small handful (maybe 3 or 4) of factory farm super-complexes? edit: I said this on page 5: OK the videos now. **WARNING*** These videos are disturbing, gory, nasty, violent, and unpleasant. If you get queasy like me, you might not want to click the links. The first one is relatively easy to take in. It's not that long and not too hard to watch. It's produced by PETA (and narrated by Alec Baldwin), which I realize costs it in the credibility department, but it's a good representation of the truth none the less. YouTube- Meet your Meat The second video is... challenging. It's an hour and a half long and will ruin your day (at least). It ruined my day when I first saw it (and the second time as well...) But it is credible, and will open your eyes to some things you should know about the world you live it. This one is narrated by Joaquin Phoenix. If you want to devote an hour and a half to watching some unpleasant footage and cannot claim to be informed about the extent of the problem, consider this to be your red pill. There's some foundational philosophical positions laid out in the first 10 minutes, if not the whole thing consider watching just the beginning. Earthlings
I'm gonna stay far away from this thread. I hate when vegans/vegetarians tell me something gross about a product i enjoy and then i cant ever eat it again. Like milk. Damn you predicide. Damn you to hell.
I barely ever eat meat. Maybe like once a week I eat meat. I don't even really like it that much. I could definitely live without meat, but I don't find anything wrong with dairy products
i really do enjoy eating stuff like steak and chicken, but i feel horendous for what happens to the animals. i do think they could do it in a much more humane way, but they will never change. so i will continue to eat what foods i want, and support people who dont wish to partake. They are standing for a good cause, but i simply cannot live without the food i love.
I doubt anyone here had tried watching the videos you've linked... I watched up until the slaughterhouse, I'm afraid to look any further. Really, watch the videos; they, albeit depressing, really do change your opinion of what you're really eating. I personally couldn't make this choice, seeing as I have little say in what I eat (I have 5 other people in my house that don't give a **** what I think) but you definitely get my respect for both an outstanding post and having enough determination to convert. I'll give you this, though, you've definitely inspired me to eat more peanut butter.
I have to say + rep for citing your recourses! Not many people do that as well as you have with the long video and such. I have to say I disagree with the vegan/vegatarian diet. This is a personal preference, but I prefer to eat meat. I enjoy the taste of it, and it opens a wider variety of meals when going to a restraunt. I have to say I'm a hardcore omnivore, I also enjoy fruits and vegatables as much as you probably do. I have to say I like to keep up with variety, and I think many other people do as well, and that's why we are not vegans/vegetarians. I think many people do realize that they could survive on an all veggie diet, but we have cravings that are very hard to resist. I crave burger's now and then. I can say from personal experience that I have had soy burger's, and they are not that good. I prefer the real thing. And good job citing your resources once again! Have a good day! ~Randle $candal
I won't argue against you. It was... depressing to see the ways those animals died. I watched the first part of the long video all the way through, but since I've seen both of those videos before (Culinary Arts: Nutrition Class) during college I'm not going to watch them any further. I agree with you that it is horrible to raise, treat, and kill animals the way they do, and although it might be that the human race was meant to be herbivores, not everyone will accept that. Although I would love to be a vegetarian I will agree with others that I don't believe I could give up my meats. You really deserve a huge amount of credit if you're a vegan. I would also like to add that the way they killed cats and dogs in the gas chambers was horrifying. I have two adorable cats and I could never ever think of doing those kinds of things to animals. It's horrible really... It made a tear up even, which is hard to do...
I figured I was the only veggie on forgehub! I was vegan for a couple of months as well, but I've been veg for coming up on 4 years. I actually just wrote a 3 month 13 page paper about vegetarianism. Anyway, Meet your Meat is a great video, I suggest everyone watch it, it is really an eye opener. Well, since I'm veg I don't want to post anything biased, maybe I'll upload my paper later. It touches more base on how unsafe it is to eat meat as well as the health and economical effects. I'd be more than happy to get in a internet argument if you care to *****.
Way more water, too. A lot more water goes into creating meat than any other type of food. That video was posted somewhere else on this site. Maybe it was by you, I'm not sure. But I watched it. By the end, I was crying. Watching that video has made me want to eat less meat. I pay closer attention to what I buy nowadays. But the one thing that I have been able to successfully do is switch to soy milk. I buy the chocolate "Silk" brand soy milk, and it is delicious. Now I'm not hurting moo cows as much! But I still eat cheese and butter. So Predicide, what do you eat now that you don't eat meat? Let's say, hypothetically, that I wanted to reduce the amount of meat that I eat. What do you recommend I start with?
I eat meat, lots of it. Especially bacon...mmm bacon. But, I understand why people don't eat meat. No way I am going anywhere near those videos, though, predicide. I don't want to know. I just know that I love steak, chicken hamburgers, hot dogs, ribs, etc etc etc etc. That's about all I have to say.
Ignorance is bliss, eh? Take it from me, it's possible to watch the videos and still eat meat. And actually, only one part of the Earthlings video is even about consumption of animals. The other parts deal with how we use animals for entertainment, clothing, and companionship. All in all, we suck.
I totally understand that, Domy. I don't think I would have been able to sell the idea on my parents back when they were the source of my food. Hell, it was awkward enough telling them at age 27... The way you word that, it sounds like you have the idea that I decided I didn't like the taste of meat. Quite the opposite. I used to love eating meat, it was a staple in my diet. I assure you there was sacrifice involved, for me at least. Really? They show that in a culinary class? That's quite interesting. I was actually shown it for the first time in a college course as well, but it was ethics. Hell yeah, you should do that. No, it wasn't me. I didn't know it had been put on FH before. I did mention it in the shoutbox over at GoO the day I saw it, actually only about a month ago. Oh dude, me too. My ethics professor played it on the last day of class, and I actually had to leave. I went home and watched the rest of it later that day on youtube. Anyway the next time I saw my prof he said he could tell how upset I was when I left... OK I'll do my best here. I really haven't the skill or inclination to cook, so I probably don't do too well for myself. Like you mentioned, soy milk really surprised me with how good it was. I thought it would be nasty, but I actually really liked it the first time I tried it. I eat lots of pasta to fill me up. Smoothies are good... banana, peanut butter, and soy milk. Most grocery stores have some kind of vegitarian section. Some brands of frozen dinners are Amy's and Morning Star Farms, if you can find them they are really good. Some brands of veggie/soy burgers I've tried are really bad and some are really good. Morning Star Farms make good frozen veggie burgers. Chips and salsa, I'm trying every different jar of salsa I can find, I've found some really... interesting... ones. The hardest thing is ordering at resturaunts. There are some resturaunts I just can't go to. For instance, it's really hard to order anything at a seafood resturaunt, and relatively easy at a Mexican resturaunt. When I went to Scotland, I found it was much easier. They are way more vegitarian-friendly over there. Every single resturaunt I went into had a vegitarian section on the menu. Whereas here, I get to try to place special orders at every resturaunt I go to while the waitor looks at me like I have a **** growing out of my forehead.
At the risk of sounding like a hippie or whatever, I just don't know how we could do that to another living thing. I say we get a bunch of people with guns to go over there, and set the animals free. Viva la revolution!
I have actually had soy milk. I can't agree with you on the taste, Predicide. It's disgusting. Bleh. I've had it on more then one occasion, and each time it got worse. But, if you like it, that's really all that matters, as I'll continue with the 2% milk.
Oh yeah and beer. Beer is still my good good friend. Actually, it bears mentioning that the transition was not difficult for me. Way easier that say... quitting drinking. As early as 3 months after, I didn't miss meat in the least. I smell it cooking and it doesn't bother me.
I've read stuff on where meat comes from, I'm aware but it still doesnt put me off. I think I'm gonna take my blue pill with a nice glass of milk. See Ya Edit: Forgot to remove my sig
Predicide, I est meat, and do not acre to argue about it. However. Please do not link a disgusting youtube video to you post. Giving the name of it so they can search for it is one thing. But as the old saying goes "Curiosity killed the cat". Presenting something with a mysterious description, to a link that will "scare" them into not eating meant is a very mean and low handed tactic. While I understand this is most likely not your intent, this is the intent of those who make the videos. Its just a nice thing for the people that would watch it because their curios, and be scarred for life.
I have absolutely no problem with vegans/vegetarians. I do have a problem with those like PETA who scream at you for killing something alive. I'm a hunter, maybe thats why... I also have a problem with those advertising and making movies/documentaries all about a slaughterhouse or some other gruesome, underhanded film that is trying to scare people from meat. Im gonna take the red pill. Now i feel no difference. I also want to tell a story that actually happened: I have a friend who has been a vegetarian for a couple years. However, recently, somebody forced her to eat some type of beef, but i forget what, all i remember is it wasn't steak or a burger, but after she ate it, she decided that she hadn't realised what she was missing out on. I'm not lying, it happened. THIS IS NOT TO PISS PEOPLE OFF!!! Talking about this actually makes me want a venicon (deer) burger. Or at least take the A1 bottle and drip some (not much) in my mouth
Ferret, I'm sorry if you had an unpleasant experience clicking on my links. But that's kind of the point. The truth is most people have no idea how bad the situation is and I think these videos do a relatively good job of providing a look at reality. They are nothing more than a matter-of-fact presentation of common, standard procedures. Are they trying to influence the audience, or "scare them into not eating meat" as you said? Yes. But there's no trickery involved. This is an excerpt of the e-mail my professor sent the class in regards to the video "Earthlings". The truth hurts, but I don't think you're scarred for life. Out of respect, I'll put a stronger disclaimer in the OP.