I guess I'll have to agree with your disagreement then Given that then the judges might as well give out feedback before the judging process or not at all.
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying--I would say that a map is bad if people generally didn't enjoy it. And that's the only way I would say it's bad. I wouldn't say it's bad if it had weird weapons, was fixed with a band-aid, was incredibly unimaginative, was ridiculously imbalanced, or whatever. I would only say it's bad if it's disliked. --- And that's why I don't agree with your statement that a map is bad if it needs weapons to make it fun. Agree to disagree.
I don't think weapon placement is a skill at all. Weapon sets largely depend on the state of the sandbox, and in this particular game, it is extremely polarizing. Some people like putting anything on their maps, others like weighing the pros and cons between maps, and there are at least a few people who pretty much don't want anything but the Damage Boost on their map. And this changes with the meta all the time. This part of Forging is in the hands of 343 and their weapon tuning, so I'm not attached to weapon sets on their own. My only position on this is the simple principle of altering a map. I don't care whether it happens once or not at all. The fact that it is happening in a contest is simply unethical, and it's not something I would want to see of anything I created. Furthermore, if anyone claims to be an intelligent designer or player, they can look past bad weapons on a map, or opt out of picking them up during the game. Both are preferred to physically deleting anything off of the design during official testing. I'm done reading your incessant attacks on Solo. I only mentioned Hangar yesterday to make a point about how the map was altered from his vision by 343. I find it ridiculous that you continue to harp on about how broken the map is and yet you couldn't even camp the room you claimed was campable when we played it with the proper power up settings - you know, the way that layout was designed to be played. If you want to play the map again and actually try, by all means, but I promise it's not going to happen. You can claim the design is slow or broken without weapons, but guess what - most maps are in ****ing Slayer, unless they are donut arenas like Midship and Warlock or otherwise impossible to move on without constantly being shot. Your number one defense for camping the labrynth on Oblivion is "you can just grenade them to flush them out." Last I checked, grenades were pickups, and I don't know about you, but I don't want to jump into the lava just to have grenades to get you out. Let's not start cherry picking. Halo is designed around picking **** up. Unfortunately, this game's sandbox is bullshit, but that doesn't mean weapons should be written off or it's suddenly not an important part of a map's holistic design. There is no scenario in this discussion where somebody's map is broken because you take the storm rifle off of it. That's not what is being debated. I'll go on to say that I'm not interested in another one of your "but it plays this at high onyx" contradictions. Your "not polished" maps would play like **** at high onyx because you're not even designing maps for Halo 5. You admitted to Legion having spawn issues before and then just yesterday said the map played flawlessly because you removed one weapon. You've also endlessly praised Oblivion and then gone on to say the map doesn't play well unless people are playing hyper aggressive. Both of those statements represent flaws in your designs and it has nothing to do with how polished they are, and everything to do with your frankly shallow grasp of this game's spawn engine. Even then, I disagree with that statement. Your maps are some of the most polished designs out there, but it's impossible to present any issue with them to you because a great wall of theory and conjecture will hand wave it away. It's not even about picking apart your designs, because there's no point in knocking on something people enjoy. But this arrogance is why people are wary of you not only looking at designs, that you have proven time and time again to be incapable of appreciating or understanding, but also suggesting that you would alter them to suit your desired gameplay. The Rubric I suggested was not there to tell you whether a design was "unimaginative generic slow garbage" or not. That's what you as a judge use your brain for. The rubric is for parsing feedback through a consistent template. If your maps end up going through that filter with low scores, it's probably because it has problems. The judges always have the prerogative of picking and choosing what they want to represent in the contest. By all means, praise originality and creative vision, but my impression of a contest is that the best maps win. And the best maps don't have problems or require changes.
You misunderstand every issue that comes you way and I'm not even going to honor half those things with a response because at this point youre just arguing with people to try and prove something to yourself. I don't attack solo, I bring up Hangar because it's the best example of an unimaginative broken map. Again, you seem to have trouble differentiating the two because everything to you is personal. No the one causal game we played on Hangar while we were all in party chat didn't play slow. Good thing we have 2 of matchmaking experience that backs up everything I've said. You don't even look at designs, you play like 2 games and judge them based on your performance. I was in the game when kell was raping you on oblivion and all of a sudden you think you can camp the map because he was abusing a plasma rifle. I also watched the few games you played on Arcanum where you went silent after falling off the map like 10 times. Literally everything with you from your posts and all your stances to you opinion on how a map plays is all, emotional. You get offended and spiral into some weird depression when I told you to widen a hallway in your map for Christ sake and then all of sudden you don't think the AR is a bullshit weapon. I've made 4 2v2 maps. Trinity, Legion, Oblivion, and Arcanum and regularly play them without weapons just fine. They're living proof that you just base your senseless emotional opinions on whatever you see right in front of you. Yes grenades are pickups but you spawn with them, I fail to see how it's any different than designing a map around the pistol. Chapel can be flushed just as well through normal pushes or even ground pounds. If that's not designing around Halo 5I don't know what is. Yes legion plays essentially flawlessly, there are also spawn issues. I was talking about the design, I didn't think I'd have to sit here and spell this out but since youre cherry picking. I have no reason to believe any of my maps should play poorly at high level because 1: we all watched the tournament and even in the finals Arcanum played better than any of the other maps, it was just fine, and 2: I've watched and played with people much better than you on my maps and they work out like they're supposed to. I'm sorry that your **** around game with soul and salty played slow, I don't care. But none of this has anything to do with ANY of the discussion people here were having so feel free to continue attacking my maps when this thread was talking about a judging process. Youre just lashing out at whatever internal rage you have built up and attacking things that 1: you know full well aren't true, and 2: are only in your post so that you can play the moral high ground. Go get therapy for whatever situation is going on in your personal life because every 3 months you go on forgehub and blow up on someone for something. This time its me, last time xandrith. Before that I don't know. But dealing with your emotional instability is honestly tiring and getting somewhat frustrating. Project elsewhere because until you want to mature and drop the "wow ur ego is so big" card youre spewing nonsense.
its halo 5 If the game is fun you will have more enjoyable experiences on maps Like shooting someone with the ce pistol on trinity It would feel good Or using the h3 br (kill me for using this) in goats hallway u guys are talking about It would feel good What the **** am I talking about Halo 5 sucks and it isn't enjoyable and it's going to be That much harder to enjoy maps
You realize this entire thread was discussing judging processes and you come in and start attacking my maps. This doesn't have anything to do with my maps, what has happened with my maps, with any of that. Why was it necessary to bring up Oblivion or Legion? How does any of that matter to the discussion of judging maps. It doesn't. You have personal vendettas that you wanted to bring up and this felt like a convenient time to jump in with the stereotypical "Herp derp Multi's ego is so crazy." when we both know full well I'm more than receptive to feedback if it makes sense. "Hangar with its proper weapons plays exactly like how it was played in that contest. Your matchmaking experience is irrelevant because the map was altered. " It doesn't matter the differences between the matchmaking and custom version because the design is the same thing. There are two doorways into a room that you have to cross a big ass divide to get to. If you want to speed up powerup respawn times to hide that fact be my guest, you tested Hangar in games with Chunk and Warholic for chirst sake, no wonder you think the map is fine. How could the quality of those games possibly be indicative of the quality of the map? It was in matchmaking for TWO MONTHS while the waypoint forums were saying "**** this map" because it was slow and impossible to break setups against competent players. Furthered by the fact that I even told the judges before it got into matchmaking that exact thing would happen, weird that you're criticizing me for disregarding criticisms when literally thousands of people testified to exactly what I'm talking about with Hangar. No this isn't an attack on Solo I have no issue with him, it's just a map with a lot of baggage and it's convenient to bring up. Seriously open your eyes man, you're desperate to take literally any stance that's the opposite of mine as of 2 weeks ago when you flipped on every position you held. Gimme a break. You seriously think changing the powerups on Hangar from being static to dynamic (only difference between the MM version and custom version) would change how the map fundamentally plays? "What "all of a sudden"? The map has always been campable which is why you designed checks to mitigate that. We had several discussions about the candlewalk being an AR fest, so it shouldn't be weird that I would have a problem with the BPR in the main method of traversing the middle of the map. You always hand waved it away - back when we actually spawned with the Assault Rifle. And now it's weird that I am not bothered by the Assault Rifle as an alternative pick up to the BPR because we are not spawning with it. Apparnetly "I don't really believe that" Give me a ****ing break." The version of Oblivion I play doesn't even have a plasma rifle. Here you are claiming the version that has an incineration canon, binary rifle, Hydra, OS, DB, and Plasma Rifle and you're complaining that you can camp? No **** the plasma rifle breaks the map, and the incin kills pushes. This literally prove my point that I've been trying to make these past 2 days. I never said the BPR wasn't an issue in the middle, I agreed that I hated it. Which is why I play the version of Oblivion with 2 Light Rifles, grenades, and a damage boost. The design works how it's supposed to without someone BPR+meleeing you in a heartbeat. What are you even getting at. I'll offer you the same challenge that I gave Salty, play me on Oblivion prime and try to camp in the middle of the map and see how you do. You won't win, and I'm sure you know that. Otherwise get on your xbox and I'll live stream us playing. "You've also endlessly praised Oblivion and then gone on to say the map doesn't play well unless people are playing hyper aggressive. Both of those statements represent flaws in your designs and it has nothing to do with how polished they are, and everything to do with your frankly shallow grasp of this game's spawn engine." How is that a flaw. Oblivion plays well when one team pushes and wipes campers. It plays bad when neither team pushes. It's good at a high level and slow at mid level games with you and Salty. Guess which one I give a **** about. You love to say that my maps would play slow with high onyx which is hilarious considering the $1000 tournament that was just held on Arcanum, but again you don't see what's right in front of you. I AM HIGH ONYX, Xandrith is high onyx. Kurismic is regularly Champion. Should I trust their gameplay our gameplay or your emotionally tinted glasses? Seriously if there's a problem with my maps I'd love to know, deep down you know this. I asked people constantly what they thought about the OS room in Arcanum because I was actually concerned about it. 200+ games later, I don't think its an issue. Last week Crush and Trignate told me it's campable and I immediately replied with "No it's not, play the map a few times." These are the statements that people normally attribute to my ego or arrogance or unwilling to listen. It's not stubbornness, I just know what to listen to and when to listen to it. No one wants my maps to play better than me so if imbalances truly existed you had better believe I would be actively searching for them. So no I don't think you can camp Oblivion because every time I've tried to do it against Champions they **** me. Not to mention literally just looking at the map I can see basic counters; if you can't that's on your own inexperience but drop your righteous fury for a second. "The rest of your post stuff is just typical "you don't get it" hand waving and it's convenient for you to criticize my personal life because I'm the only one who has the balls to call out your bullshit. Everybody is painfuly aware of your ego except for you." We're part of forum disagreements regularly - both of us. I like to think that I'm pretty self reflective about my flaws as a person and a forger. If I thought I had an ego I at least would be open about it (I realize the irony in that statement) but I don't. I know me better than you know me, and nothing I say has to do with the fact that I think I'm better, or smarter, or immaculate. I want to be the best designer and I'm not stupid enough to believe that I could achieve that through ego or ignoring truths. I believe what I believe because I think about what I say and I've been doing this a long time. I'm always open to good discussions, just most of the time it doesn't come from this forum. And right now it's not coming from you. The difference is that I don't have an emotional explosion every 3 months like you that generally involves targeting someone, this time me. If you have anything relevant to add to the judging process that hasn't already been said feel free. If you want to continue your emotional vomit about how I'm suddenly an ego monster and my maps suck do it elsewhere please. I don't care what you think or who you think you can convince; I know exactly how my maps play and I know their shortcomings. If you're going to try and tell me I'm too stubborn to see design issues that are nonexistent you're delusional. I have no interest in arguing with you about my level design on forums when you can get on Halo and just play the damn maps, but what's the point. You'll find something else to ***** about in a month and probably attack Xandrith or whoever's turn it is next. The fact that you tie maps into attacks on a forger is ridiculous nonetheless, as if my criticism of Hangar is indicative of my relationship with Solo. It also explains why everytime you have a breakdown you steer the discussion from whatever it was (in this case judging) into how I'm evil because you don't like my maps lol. This entire discussion is pointless and I don't know why it was brought up. Grow up man.
I don't even care who's right, I kind of just wish you guys would just go away for a little while because the discussion has devolved too much to be of any benefit at this point. Maybe take it to PM's if there's more to hash out?
You guys told me **** like this happened in older games and I'm starting to not believe that, at least not to this extent lol.
Chunk you beat me to it, but yeah this is becoming a butter battle. Duke it out in private or, if you have new things to add concerning the weapons for the contest, put those comments in the thread most beneficial to such a discussion.
I never said anything about replacing weapons, just deleting them or nerfing their ammo or respawn time. I was under the impression that multi had the same stance but he can correct me if im wrong. Thinking we intend to replace weapons makes this frenzy from some of you a little more understandable. I dont think that should be done and didnt intend to. Ill be happy to recommend replacements but i wouldnt do that myself to help a map win.
You mean the arguing? It's always been a thing. I think it's maybe a bit worse at this point just because a lot of the people involved have been around for quite a while. The more you interact with people, the more likely you are to find things about them you don't like. Also, a lot of veteran forgers gain confidence in their opinions, and become less patient with differing opinions. --- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2017 --- Nice try bud. You're not getting off that easy. I expect the judges to pick the weapons for my map and put them in the right spots. I'll split my prize money with you if you do the spawns for me too.