A lot of hostility over the ability to change weapons or not. The simple question is, are we judging just the map or the entire experience crafted by the forger? I'd say personally that we should be judging how the maps themselves and interactive elements on the map (like lifts teleporters, dynamic elements, scripted effects etc..). These forgers can't control what 343 does with the sandbox and maybe they are not as good at understanding weapon design and how that effects gameplay, but they may understand level design perfectly and make something awesome. So is this a level design contest or a game design contest? Decide that now and that's where the decision is made on whether or not the judge should be able to edit your weapon placement. IMO, For those who are actually participating in this contest. The judges changing your weapon set will only improve your maps chances of doing better in the contest. Regardless of subjectivity or not. If they don't like your weapon set and they change it to something they do like for judging, that only is a benefit to you. It's not like they are having to go into your file share and forcing your OG map to have what they want. It's not destroying your creative vision. This doesn't give maps advantages over others either as the judges will be putting what they feel is best on every map they play. If yours already has the weapons they prefer then that's just a plus for you. Noone will all of a sudden have their map jump above all the rest if all of a sudden a damage boost replaced a speed boost on a map. It just helps everyone.
I'm going to put a tier 3 incineration cannon on Spranklz map and then disqualify it for having a tier 3 incineration cannon.
I'll say my one piece regarding this. This goes back as far as I can think of when it comes to level design. You the designer are in charge of creating the best play space that encompasses the best spawning, best weapon combination, etc. I PERSONALLY think the judges should JUDGE the map the way it was presented. You don't see a cake baking contest judges change the white frosting for chocolate because the white frosting is faux vanilla. If the forger has a great design and sucked at spawning/weapon sets, that's on the forger not the judges. It should be judged based on that. If the map was designed well and it played well with what we're provided with, then it will excel further than those who didn't properly test their maps. It's more than just creating a level, it's about being able to complete the full package. Again, this my personal feelings towards this. I really think the maps should be judged as is. If there are things that needed to be changed, that should be left as feedback for the forgers to improve upon.
This is only true for people who are benefiting from the weapon changes. If someone really nails their weapon set, they are actually likely to do worse than they would otherwise, because they do not receive the benefit gained from having judges change the weapons, while other maps do. I also don't think that a map should be tested equally with and without weapons--some maps don't function as well (or perhaps really at all) without the specific weapon set, or any weapon set. I think this really alters the vision of the map.
Then your map is ****. If you need weapons to make your map work, it is ****. You don't FIX design problems by putting weapons on maps. If you need a rocket launcher to clear a room or sniper rifle to counter a high point, what happens when the person grabs those weapons and goes right back to the spot needing balancing. You just made your problem twice as bad. Weapons can never make a map play better, they can make them play worse though. You're never going to solve design issues by placing weapons, only create issues that weren't there. Yes you can create cool encounters with different weapons but that's not the same thing. I'll repeat myself for the 10th time. Legion with a Light Rifle was stupid. Uncounterable, long range sniping rapey top heavy mess. I removed the Light Rifle and the map has been perfect ever since. Was the map flawed? No. Did the weapon break the map? **** yes. I removed a single weapon and everything worked and has worked ever since. If I had submitted Legion with the Light Rifle to the contest and it lost to Hangar because it had balance issues with the weapon, would that be a smart decision for me to make? **** no. The map was fine, the geometry was fine, everything did what it was supposed to do. I would just be an idiot for placing a Light Rifle. Otherwise Legion shits on Hangar, it's a better design by most standards that I judge by. If you seriously want to talk about this to do it over XBL because you're completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting this entire discussion to everyone else on FH.
It probably took you longer to type this then it would to make my gametype. 3 OBJ Strongholds with points for slaying. Come on Martian, how long you gonna make me wait!
Okay well you're wrong. Objectively wrong. This isn't even some soft subject it's just basic logic. If you need a weapon to balance part of your map, then that section of the map with the weapon will be as bad or worse. This has always been true and always been a crutch for bad designers. But feel free to try and prove me wrong. I'll just grab the weapons and abuse your map.
Some people put power weapons in vulnerable positions. Players would never go to these positions if there were no reward. Without the weapon, there is no risk vs reward scenario. Further, even if some map is balanced without weapons, it might be extremely dull. The weapon set might give it the flavor that actually makes it a fun map.
Can't the people that're really worried about the weapons & the design of their map just, y'know, test it? And I mean really test it. Get some peeps that are open-minded and able to give you good constructive feedback. It shouldn't be too hard finding folks for Duel maps, c'mon now. Or you can waste time with these theories about your map, semantics, objective/subjective whatever the ****.
Lmao. Okay so 1: That positions becomes totally useless when the weapon isn't up, and 2: That doesn't answer my question. I grab the weapon, survive and leave. I now have made the rest of your map twice as imbalanced as it used to be.
i like putting no weapons on my maps, and then just waiting until someone gets pissed off enough at me to do it for cause i know **** about good weapon placement lol. Black friday once had 3 saw's
Life has been super busy lately. College and work Haven't. gotten any free time as of late. It's honestly been pretty shitty. It may be best to try and sick the scripting guild guys on it.
If the judges all agree on this maybe they could make a small statement somewhere on how they envision their judging when it comes to weapons. The wiggle room with weapons on a 1v1 is pretty small and I really believe it could be helpful for some people. At least for the sake of this discussion.