For the record, that's what justifies all the quality of my maps, I believe. Doesn't matter how cool or creative a map is, if it falls apart at high level then the map is broken at a fundamental level. Pretty much what we saw with the forge maps in the 2v2 playlist for literally every map except Cobalt and Optic Prison (when the powerups were spawning)
I interrupt this show with an important update about my discontent... It seems like all l I read here is an endless barrage of posts where people are being belittled and antagonized intentionally, for what seems to be the sole purpose of entertainment, or maybe in hopes of baiting them into saying something that can be rubbed in their faces for another six months. It's honestly juvenile. I mean, I like everyone here, but I hate the way a lot of the interactions play out. It's gotten to the point that it feels like I'm at a 'debate' site, where the goal is to poke holes in everything that's said, win arguments all all cost, and rub it in the losers face until they cry uncle. One of the core principles I live my life by is treating everyone with respect at all times, even when they fail to treat others respectfully. Seeing disrespect being displayed constantly isn't something I care to witness, regardless of whether it's just a joke, a shot disguised as a joke, or outright malice. I'm not even asking anyone to change because I don't want anyone to change how they act to appease me. I'm just questioning out loud why I'm here when a good portion of the content goes directly against one of my core values. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
Well that actually is testable so it wouldn't even be opinion. But I would disagree, I think Arcanum and Obo are probably MORE competitively suited than Legion if anything.
What truly is "high-level" 2v2? Guess will never know because bungie and 343i never gave a damn to support it at an Esports level. Ranked MM and Gamebattle sure, but **** gets a lot realer when big $$ is on the line. 4v4 Halo esports players have some pretty narrow preferences when it comes down to what they find enjoyable, or rather acceptable, in map design. It's actually sort of sad that the maps seem to being doing them a service rather then the viewer base. Then again, that's always been the issue with "esport" Halo hasn't it? When the viewer base is primarily the defunct player base, It's a self defeating system. I know Slayer is the primary "Showtime" gamemode of arena Esport Halo. But that **** really needs to go, or at least be kept on a low low number of maps. It's disgusting how much a maps objective potential can be sacrificed just to make sure it doesn't stagnate in top 5% Slayer. Halo isn't an arena game anymore, the maps and game modes need to change to reflect that or we need to go ( PLEASE 343I) back to arena Halo.
I mean, I've always held the opinion that if your map survives high level slayer than it more than likely can play objective just fine. But I agree that purpose building maps is the best way to go for competition; it's just not very efficient.
If you get any of the semi pros from H3-Reach (since those are the guys I'm familiar with) to play on all 3 of your maps, I'm positive Legion would play the best. Worst case scenario, they figure out how to **** up your spawns and it snowballs. Oblivion is a very punishing map and Arcanum requires more mental skill - and I'm sure they both have more meta than Legion - so they'd have something to offer those players. But they'd gravitate towards Legion on account of it being more predictable, more straight forward, and less intrusive.
YOU FORGOT THE SHIRE **** YOU. Seriously tho, if 2v2 esport players had the same mentality of 4v4 esports players (which is dry and bland predictable everything) I could see them being extremely put off by Oblivion for the nade unpredictablity alone among other things. They like sports arenas from what I've seen. That's assuming I know what there mentality would be (I don't) So while Oblvion could be entirely more fun to watch 2v2 played on, and could be entirely more competitive then a "Halo sports arena" , that doesn't mean a Esports level player would consider it "competitvely viable" When a nade bouncing funny off a rock in the catacombs causes a team to lose 250,00$ , they might get a bit salted lol
That map is amazing, just misunderstood and underforged for what multi alone would be capable of. Bring back the Shire H6
Oh on that regard of course I'm sure they'd like Legion the most; it's the most approachable thing I've made in a long time. But that's not really what I define as competitively viable. I've got a pretty straight forward criteria for how competitively viable something can be. 1:Is it campable? 2: If not, then how many strategies are there? 3: Of those strategies, how difficult are they to perform/discern? If the answer to #1 is yes, then the map isn't viable. If the answer to #2 is only 1, then it is not competitively viable. Which is how I see 'donuts'. Most of the time they are viable in the sense that they don't have imbalances (bar Overgrowth) but they come down to shooting directly in front of you on the circuit, or directly across from you on the circuit. See Zealout. Very rudimentary and bland, not very mentally challenging. I think Oblivion is marginally less flexible than Legion in the sense that Legion is sandbox as ****, tons of different ways to play it but they're all pretty obvious and straightforward. Obo has really cool plays when they happen, way more punishing too. Arcanum I think would obliterate both of them in terms of mental depth. Buddy if I had dev tools for Obo I would invis barrier every surface to give you the butter nades you deserve lol. I might remake it here at work if I have spare time. Lol. The Shire will come back when we have better tools.
You mean Demption Anyway that was my point. All of Multi's maps will play well in matchmaking, but "money on the line" gameplay is a completely different beast and requires less variables. I'm pretty sure those players would ***** if they can't grenade up a staircase. --- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2017 --- @MultiLockOn you think a competitively viable map should be campable?
I don't think it requires less variables. it just tends to polarize things, maps either get absurdly fast or absurdly slow. Tends to exasperate whatever trends were already showing in MM. There are instances of this not being true; Pit played fine in all levels of MM but come tourneys it came to a halt. But Pit had a very very clear and recognizable problem (3 lane, no ways to push, shitty BR). I don't see that as a problem on anything I've made. But who knows. --- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2017 --- Nope, got lost in my wording. Fixed it.
I agree with this, but not all maps that survive high level Slayer should have objectives played on them haha Slayer just makes maps be purpose built. The map is the ****ing objective lmao. That's why I just wanna see it go, so tired of it shaping design. Overwatch and Counter Strike get it. Halo needs to follow suit, or just go back to being an arena game, where ya know, Slayer works well in lol
Yeah, I can get on board with that. They need to hire better designers before they do anything like that though.
Also, if Obo were to get in MM I would pull those ****ing ridiculous weapons off the map. Haven't done it yet because idk I don't really care. But holy **** does the Plasma Rifle make the CQB areas shitty and the incin ruins pushes until the charge is depleted, super annoying. I'd leave DB and OS.
I'm really over slayer. I hate that I have to design every area on my map to check another area, because without it there's no reason to push and people get comfortable. The majority of the Halo population (and shooters in general) run around chasing kills. I do this myself in most playtests, because I "just wanna have fun" or otherwise not use my brain. But if you're trying to win, which is how people play at a high level, you don't want to make stupid plays and over extend yourself. That means people don't push unless the map forces them to. In Halo 5, it's not only difficult to push because of how bad the pistol is, but also easier than ever to disengage. So maps need a laundry list of checks and balances to discourage that behavior, and I'm just tired of designing that way. Sure, it's made me a smarter designer, but it's also consequently stagnated my designs. I want to build spaces that are simple and have the gametype encourage people to use the whole map.
I think one way to design is to force players to push, but another way is to reward players who push. I think Legion is a good example of that.