I have seen in a number of places people complaining about map/prefebs theft and the other night, I had enough of this topic in chat and was determined to say my bit on it. Apparently some seemed to quietly agree with my opinion and others vocally disagreed. I'm going to take a moment here to reiterate my opinion on the matter. First a few facts: Halo is a game. Forge is for sharing. Forgehub is for posting your Halo creations. No-one, to my knowledge, is being paid to create this Forge content. It is impossible to steal in Halo. Now to my point. It is impossible to steal in Halo. Anything you build in Halo that is not hidden is Halo community property. I know the hide feature just appeared but that doesn't change the fact that everything that came before it was community property. I think by now we all know how the internet works. Once you share in Forge, it belongs to the universe. FYI, I was against the whole open sharing thing in the first place. Not because I didn't think it belonged to the community, but because I hated people not having the option to build their map in privacy. That and the clutter, holy **** are we now filled with the clutter. Anything cool you build in a map can and will be added to prefab. This is not stealing, and it is unstoppable. People are using Forge as the community driven video game tool that it was intended to be. I mean, when you heard the concept for prefab sharing, what did you think it would be? And for the love of god don't expect people to give you credit for your prefab on their maps. Could you imagine if we had to do this for every stock object in Halo. "Props go out to Bill Butters for making the 1x2 light bar. Without it we would be left in the dark." People need to get their head around the fact that just because they find something they created in the fileshare, with pictures, modified or not, it doesn't mean that someone is out to claim it is their own. It just means that they found it and liked it. At worst it means they changed it and thought others may prefer their changes. Still ok. Posting at Forgehub: I am pro posting remixed map creations at Forgehub if they have long since been dropped by the original creator, and or, have been altered enough to justify the post. Personally I would like to see a map post heading labelled "Map Remixes" where the only prerequisite would be to list the original creators name. Why? Because fun should be our number one concern. On the flip-side, if someone comes to ForgeHub claiming that they made a map from scratch and it is clearly not, then yes, it must be dealt with. Not by a public flamefest, but by a mature admin that will look it over to confirm it's legitimacy, and remove the post if necessary. tl;dr Share and play nice.
Calling @Aschur and @Ascend Hyperion because clearly you didn't take what they said to heart. Sure, it might be property of the community, but it's the same as the public domain. If an author was to write a book, and he you were to change one chapter and rerelease it, then you can't just not say who wrote it and expect that to be okay. You need to credit the original author and yourself for the work that you did, because if you have the time to do what you think are enough improvements to another persons map to have it be your own work you've put some work into it. I'd rather see people's time put into making new maps and filtering out the really good ones from the shitload of maps that we have.
If we're bringing the law into it, every single thing built within Forge is the property of Microsoft. Forgers have no ownership of 'their' content. Public domain is inapplicable.
I was just about to post this Chunk, literally beat me by two seconds. We don't own anything and we cannot claim that we own it. I don't know where this ownership misconception occurred but now it is starting to get a bit annoying.
You realize that Forgehub isn't a publication service right? Apparently you think that one persons OPINION trounces anothers and it isn't up for discussion. Who says they believe it to be their own work? It is not your place to tell others where their time is best spent. Peoples play styles differ, and if adjusting a maps play style is all it takes to get people excited about playing it, then why should that get **** blocked because the original creator doesn't want it played that way. Halo is a game.
Well, I never said that their opinion is better than yours, it just happens that I agree a little more with it. Frankly, I'm somewhere more in the middle more. I'm totally up for changing maps, I just think you should contact the original author and show your changes as a suggestion. I don't recall telling anyone what to do, it's just a stupid ideal of mine. However, when someone spends a large chunk of their time making a map that other people can enjoy, you shouldn't be able to take that away from them just by not crediting anyone. Sure, this may all belong to microsoft, but they credit map-makers when they put their maps into a playlist.
It isnt about legality or anything like that, it is much simpler than that. Its just a shitty thing to do, and the entire principle of stealing someones work (even if the work doesnt belong to them) is just wrong. If that does not click in your head, then I don't have anything further to say to you. It is wrong, there is no good way to steal someones work.
@Preacher001 will probably respond to this be saying "it's not stealing". And by most senses, he's right, but if I go back to the public domain metaphor it would be like taking a character and implying (not stating) that it was your work.
ok.. everyone, everything preacher001 ever made (that's good) was actually made by me. the credit is mine. if anyone is looking for his, I MEAN MY maps i'll have them up soon, under gamertag kmancal8 Preacher this is idiotic...
I was gonna use this example but didnt, I guess I will. Map theft is like if someone were to deface Michelangelo's statue of David by adding an extra ***** to it, then claiming that the entire sculpture was their work. The sculpture doesnt belong to Michelangelo, never did, but it is still very wrong. Now obviously map theft isnt as heinous as doing that, but the point stands.
I agree for the most part. The problem lies in determining where to draw the line. Forgers have been copying each other since the very beginning. I personally don't see anything wrong with this. If you're talking about someone downloading another persons map, saving over it without changing anything, and then publicly claiming credit for it, then yeah that's a really shitty thing to do. Like I said, I'm not sure where you draw the line between those two scenarios though, and if it comes to a choice between allowing all of it or none of it, I'm clearly on the side of allowing all of it. The community has a way of punishing those who 'steal' the work of others. Edit - What we really need is one simple addition that should have been there from the beginning... Have the original authors name permanently attached to a file. If a prefab is inserted into a file, the author of that will have their name automatically added to the file. I don't know if that's possible, but that's what we need.
[QUOTE="If you're talking about someone downloading another persons map, saving over it without changing anything, and then publicly claiming credit for it, then yeah that's a really shitty thing to do. [/QUOTE] He's talking more about changing a few pieces or weapons, (probably <50) then not officially crediting anyone and letting the game imply that you created it, because that's what it'll say.
But how is someone 'implying' that they created it? If they're not publicly claiming it as their own content, I see nothing wrong with it.
I know we are super awesome, but a lot of people that create content have no idea that FH even exists. They live in their own little world and do what they want in it. Meanwhile FH users are in a tizzy about how something was stolen from them. Pointless. I never said at any point that they should not credit map creators. I did however tell people to just accept that they won't be credited for prefabs, both offered and pulled. As I have heard a few people mention before, prefab it yourself before someone else does. If it's widely loved you will see it everywhere. Learn to feel good about that. I hope someone pulls the floor idea I had. It turned out great and I would love to see it in cool places.
Whereas you didn't ever directly say it, you were saying I'm the chat box that you didn't have to and you're not exactly promoting it now.
I won't waste too much time going back and forth Preacher, it's clear that we will not be agreeing and that is fine. I will however, post my counter points so that they to can be taken into consideration. First, you imply that something must have monetary value to be stolen, which is incorrect. If you wish to dive further into the meaning of stealing, please refer to the dictionary definition. That being said, by saving over and republishing other persons map, you have stolen their artistic content. If you wish to play on a map, you should bookmark it. That is the purpose of a Bookmark. It means the author can make progressive changes or choose to remove the map. It is their map and their right to do so. You mention the clutter yourself. Did you even stop to think about how that clutter comes from the massive amounts of reposts? Second, for the majority of Forgers, the sharing of content has to do mainly with exposure. People like the map, so they bookmark and play on it. Thus the map and it's author get recognition without having to rely on features or big name recognition. If you have a map you want people to check out, you post it. If you have a WIP or something unplaybable, you hide it. Simple as that. Why hide your good content? You worked hard, have the opportunity to feel proud. You bring up Prefabs, which in my opinion should be posted with the knowledge that people will use it. That is much different than someone deciding that they can steal someones design from the raw map and not mention a whisper of it. Are you telling me that asking if it's cool to use a design is too hard or that giving proper credit is impossible? Maybe if you're 8 years old sure, but I'd believe that most people are capable of these things and should be held to that standard. At least we seem to agree about remixs to some regard. I will stand firm and say that changing a few things and slapping your name on it is wrong. Small things like changing weapons, moving spawns, switching colors, etc etc is not remix level material. You have not made critical changes to layout, art, design, style, etc and thus have not produced a true remix. In any case, if you intend to remix a map, the OC should be notified. My final bout. I think there should be reprimand for those that steal content. It is disrespectful to the OC and the rate at which it is done creates terrible clutter in the browser overall. This clutter can potentially dilute out the OC and take away from the due credit. "Save copy" should be removed as a default option. The OC should have the ability to toggle that option. Just because the content browser is open to the public, it does not mean that all content is fair game, especially in a community that give recognition and credit for work done. Stealing maps was not okay before. The content browser does not make it okay now.
I've never implied that from the beginning. I tried to say exactly what I said above. I even got accused of flipping sides for trying to clarify. I have to go to work so I'll reply to the rest later.
A prefab could be stolen from the launch of forge, you could take a picture with your phone or a screenshot and rebuild a part of the map or a group and so on. This update doesn't change that much, only that it is a whole lot easier to borrow stuff. I make maps for my personal enjoyment and I would never use a prefab for whatever reason. I walk around maps and see the joy people had putting them together, I get inspiration and ideas cross my mind. Putting stuff together and creating something is the whole fun for me. If you make a map with 36 different prefabs from 21 forgers you're not forging and that's ok. If you do it that way you may never learn a thing and maybe they don't want to. Fine. I have zero problems with people stealing bits and pieces, or use my maps for whatever reason. It's out there. On the internet. An intergalactic shithole of dumbasses lying everyday for popularity and likes. From strangers. Let them have fun with it. Is it lame to steal a map and pass it of as your own? Absolutely. Is there something you can do about it? No. Maps are for sharing. Prefabs are for sharing. My two cents