I want to be upset by all this...honestly I do because I've wanted Duck to help me in my maps, that's just degrading to know that if I'm not liked, my maps just going to be **** regardless... I already have trust issues man...I didn't need this I just want to be good at making maps and that people will love them, but if the deck is stacked against me, why should I even continue?
This is a major concern for me personally. From what I have seen, very few of the Community Cartographers actually have the proper leadership skills required to fill a position with that amount of power and influence. There are a small few that are doing a wonderful job, and I have complete faith in them because I have seen how capable they truly are. Then there are others that remind me of what it was like being a member of Forgehub back in 2008. Those cartographers do not have the proper leadership skills and because of that it is highly unlikely the people they appoint will have those skills either. They'll just appoint yes-men from that inner-circle or the people who suck up to them and we will be left no better off than we currently are. That was how Forgehub operated back during the Halo 3 era. Everyone was power hungry and not a single member with influence was actually looking out for the little guy or the community as a whole. This place was quite literally a cesspool. So I appeal to 343; if you decide to continue using Community Cartographers, please pick the new ones yourselves. We need voices and leaders that will actually make the system work. I do not want to see a handful of new Cartographers who have never been in that type of position before get appointed by the current Cartographers. I do not want to be represented by people who had to work themselves into an inner circle to get where they are. I do not want any Cartographer to stay if they are looking out for themselves by making questionable decisions or using their influence to manipulate the community. I want to be represented by someone who actually knows how to lead and can be the spokesperson for the community's interests.
"Rebellion" Good to see this opinion translating over from reddit. This video is about CC's, not Forge Hub. As for @MultiLockOn video, I think in the past your argument was a bit more credible. The title alone of the video pisses me off, because you spend the majority of the first 5 minutes or so compliment most of the active CC's, whilst using a title that demeans the group as a whole. This is more a really a video about Duck. You should be using the attention of the video to improve CC system changes that benefit everyone, rather use a shitty click bait title that implies its actually the fault of the CCs at the moment. Now a lot of the community who didnt watch the video presume the likes of War etc need to be removed. I'l add other thoughts later, but certainly not the "final nail in the coffin" for the CCs. Also, new Doom looks shite.
So many mixed feelings on this, @MultiLockOn. I'm probably going to ramble a bit, but I'm just trying to processes my thoughts on this. The problem is, this 15 minute is really two videos. The first video, about 4 minutes in length, is on the CC process. I liked this part a lot. I thought you had a good description of the system for the unfamiliar, past issues, and problems currently exist: inactive members, selection criteria, removal mechanisms, and the fact that the system can be abused by those who do not act impartially. I wish you would have spent more time on this section because I think there's important things to be said here. Your points about not being able to remove existing CC's hint at this. The CC's are presented as representatives of the community, a typical republic form of democracy. However, without a method of electing/unelecting our representatives, the system doesn't have the feedback mechanism necessary to make it work. I would have loved to listen to you go down this line of thought (maybe in another video) because it seems to be the thesis of this first section of your video. The second video starts at the 4-minute mark and covers the problems you've raised about Duck's conduct. This is the part that's causing the mixed feelings. See, you start the video with : And then you proceed to spend 11 minutes attacking Duck's misconduct. Now, I think the intent here was to use Duck as an example of a problem CC that really needs to go, but can't be removed from the system, thus demonstrating your earlier point about the CC system needing a removal mechanism. I can dig that. Thing is, you end the video by saying that no matter how the system gets changed, it can't work as long as Duck's involved. So that's why I saw the second video is all about Duck - and it's where my mixed feelings are coming from. On one hand, it's valuable for you to raise awareness about a CC's bad conduct. With no formal way to remove a community representative, the only real way to effect that change is to stir up public sentiment against the CC in question. Taking a look at the Youtube comments on the video, Reddit replies, and many of the responses here - mission accomplished - you've made enough of a smear on his name that there's a good chance that this will be big enough that 343 will remove him either from the current system or exclude him from the new system. (My use of "smear" is not meant to imply it was undeserved, but I felt like it accurately describes what's taking place when you get a lot of people made about something.) On the other hand, the way this is conducted, this sort of highly public personal attack, is not good for us Forgers. For many players, their main perception of the Forge community is characterized by posts about lies, dishonesty, etc... It sets a very negative tone. (This in itself is not a reason to hold your videos back - calling bullsh*t on bullsh*t is rarely a positive tone setter). But by focusing on Duck so much, you've raised him up as an symbol of all CC's... even universally positive ones like Warholic or Nokyard. The discussion gets so bogged down by (often the same) people chiming in about one person, that discussion of the systemic problems never occurs. On top of that, the focus on moving to a mass democracy voting system is gaining steam... and because the nature of these types of posts tend to reduce community trust in a content-selection system, relying on mass votes stands a very good chance of getting picked for the wrong reasons. Namely, it'll get picked because it's a system that generates a lot of player (not Forger) faith, but not because it produces the best content for matchmaking. It's not necessarily a bad system, but framing this discussion around a single CC's actions prevents that discussion from being had. I think it also limits the trust 343 will be willing to put into our Forge community. So that's my mixed feelings on this video. If nothing else, you've convinced me that the current system (or any future system) needs a community feedback mechanism on its representatives, so that the discussion you have in the second part of your video can still be had without as many of the negative side effects that are necessary for this kind of public campaign. Re-reading this, I feel like the tone of this post has come off as too critical of your video, which wasn't my intention. Your video was well made, and I think it's a useful input to the CC-overhaul discussion. I just worry that the "cure" of raising negative public sentiment against Duck will end up being worse than the "disease" of the problems with the current system. Question for you Multi - would you say it's fair to characterize your position saying that removing Psychoduck as a CC is the main fix the community should pursue? Or would you say that changing the existing system is more important? (This is coming from the video at 15:02)
Okay well first off, I love your post. Even before your re-read, I thought it was all fair critique, and elegantly worded. I'm aware of a lot of the ramifications that comes with a video like this, but ultimately I felt like unless we take drastic steps like this nothing ever gets done. Xandriths thread where he finally called out the bullshit was the first time in 6 years I felt like we have ever made any progress and I didn't want to dilly dally around while the complaints were ignored and eventually disregarded. AGAIN. I think there are some CC's that need to go AND restructuring the system are both vital to what the community needs.
I think Goat and Sn1p3r C have hit all but three points I'd like to make about this whole situation. @MultiLockOn continues to withhold the secrets of Halo 5 Metal. We need the Guardian of the Gates to show us the key to turn the MultiLockOff and unbar the path to the new Metallic Meta Mecca. I will now be forced to post on HaloWaypoint. It is clear that Multi prefers Hobbits over Jedis, because he refuses to give us A New Hope.
As far as the critique of the system as a whole, I think it just needs to be more consistent. Either the community should be informed by 343 that they are looking for maps from the get go, or it should be a completely quiet ordeal. As I originally understood the CC system, it was not their job to make everything an open free for all to get maps into matchmaking by making their tasks public knowledge, but rather to filter maps that were already being made naturally by the community. I think this system has caused a problem though, especially when it comes to BTB maps. Their are simply not enough CCs to have closed BTB lobbies, so that tasks can remain a secret. And even in the case of smaller lobbies it is still essential that the CCs communicate with the forgers of the maps they are looking at to ensure they are ultimately up to snuff. So word seems to get out. that all being said, I don't think it's fair to judge that maps that were being worked on longer got a fairer shot, because ultimately the goal of the CCs was to evaluate maps already being made, not ones being made specifically for the purpose of getting into MM. The same can be said for the 2v2 contest. Your critique assumes that the CCs had knowledge of the 2v2 task when the contest was initiated. But even if that were so, so what? There goal is to evaluate the maps that have been made, not ones to be made specifically for MM. The larger problem with taking maps from the contest is that they are eliminating maps that have been made outside of the contest, not that the task wasn't public. If the goal is going to shift from secret tasks for naturally created maps to public contests for MM prestige, so be it. But I think it's only fair that the system be critiqued in the context of its understood goals. You make the claim that CCs are supposed to represent the community, and if you want that to be the case, public tasks would eliminate that. CCs would strictly become filters and judges for maps getting into matchmaking. Now obviously we have some sort of frankenstien system now, but that is not the fault of the CCs, who are volunteers forced to work in the system set up by 343. i think it's strange that you cross the wires of of the forgehub YouTube channel and the CCs. I agree with Doju, that if this is a critique of psychoduck personally, you should frame it as such. In my opinion personal bias comes with the territory. Umtilately these are volunteers, who, when picking maps (either for a feature or for matchmaking), will make choices which are subjective (I've heard it said all map design is subjective) and biased. The solution to eliminating bias is to include more people. More active CCs advocating for more diverse groups. This brings back the point of CCs being representatives. No one person can objectively represent everyone, so that should not be the bar we set for being a CC. Rather we should overwhelm bias with other bias. I think a major problem with the current CC pool is the obvious focus on this site. We need more community forgers from more sites, to make sure the halo community as a whole feels included. Now finally to what I believe was the true focus of the video: Duck. As I said I can't fault someone for bias, but the creative force quote threw me. My "everyone has biases" argument obviously doesn't hold up here as what was said by Duck is so hypocritical. It's obvious he has bias (which is fine) but to blackball another community member for the same sin is kinda gross to put it lightly. I have never had any problems with duck myself. And I think the lobbies he set up for BTB were pretty easy to find and inclusive. As far as I'm concerned he can feature whoever he wants on YouTube. He can advocate for whatever maps to get into matchmaking. But I think it's only fair that if he'd like the benefit of the doubt from the commininty in those regards, he pay the same respect to his fellow community members and CCs. Do I think duck "needs to go"? No. I think the system as a whole can work with or without him. Am I going to advocate one way or the other? I don't think I can in light of this video.
Bingo. This is where most of the problems stem from, whether it's "back in the day" or more notably during the past few months. Everyone should take a second to read the above quote and understand how it relates to what has been happening the past few months. Either the CCs should not be mentioning their tasks at all to ANYONE at any point or they should not be mentioning their tasks to anyone UNTIL AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT IS MADE. I'm fine with the CCs' close friends defending the CCs. What I'm not okay with is this selective application of "well they're probably under NDA". If this alleged NDA exists, I can say from my own personal experience, a large portion of the "core" gametype CCs (2v2, 4v4, BTB, etc.) are breaking it. So either these CCs are breaking their NDA or there is no NDA at all. This is obviously a problem because if they are breaking their NDA, well, they're breaking their NDA. If there is no NDA, then they or their close friends or those who defend the CCs are using a non-existant NDA to defend and justify the actions of the CC. Ignoring the NDA stuff for a second, the fact of the matter is that a large portion of the CCs (barring the non-"core" gametype CCs such as Nokyard, Ducain, etc.) share information on tasks with those close to them long before any of the information is announced publicly. I can say for a fact that not only have I been told or "nudged" multiple times by CCs to make certain maps sometimes months in advance of the official announcement of tasks, but I've also witnessed close friends of CCs flaunt the fact that they've been told similarly. Some might say "why does that matter, if your map is good enough it'll get noticed". In extreme cases, that might be true. However, in most cases it's not a fair enough counterargument because A) most of the time the turnaround from the official announcement to the deadline is too quick for most Forgers to reasonably build, test, and refine and quality map and B) sometimes getting your foot in the door early is more important than anything else (more testing, more time to make an impression, etc.). The BTB task is a prime example. The official announcement came on February 5th and the first BTB test lobby was only a week later. Which maps were tested? Fracture, Scavenger, Eagle Square , Artemis, and Quixotic. The first three made it into matchmaking (and the fourth is created by two CCs). NOTE: I am not speaking on the quality of any of these maps. I'm merely demonstrating that getting your foot in the door early is very important. In conclusion, I want to return to the portion of SloppyBottom's post I originally quoted up top. I think a "system" in which the community just creates the content it wants to naturally create and the CCs are "tasked" with just highlighting and passing on maps that gain traction within any given community or display an outstanding level of quality. It can be a really cool race track that hits the top or r/Halo or a 2v2 map that the ForgeHub community is clamoring over or a BTB map that generates a lot of interest on YouTube. I'm aware these first few months of Halo 5 are different because 343 was/is specifically looking for certain types of maps to help fill out certain types of playlists and gamemodes, but I think outside of Infection those needs have been filled and we could benefit from a "natural" system like the one outlined above.
1. I don't use reddit 2. You must have missed the part where I said, I'm not surprised some level of corruptness has carried over to the CC years later. From what I gathered from checking in every now and then since Halo 3 was that forgehub's power shifted from the staff being the "all mighty" to the CC's being the "all mighty "because of how much was at stake. Back in Halo 3 the staff determined who won contests and got features, and that's what everyone wanted back then. But when the whole getting maps into MM thing came around everyone wanted to get a map into MM and since the CC's had the power over people (In a sense) they became the ones in power (In a sense). Again I want to state though, I'm sure all of the CC's are not "corrupt" or doing a bad job. I can't speak to their actions on a personal level since I am not actively apart of this community anymore but I was just trying to shine light on the whole favoritism, dislike and rejection of certain peoples maps, etc.
That's fine and all, but even if there were people who agreed with these sentiments, the presentation of the video alone is going to shy away the large majority of those people from ever speaking up. Currently the video is very aggressive, uses personal insults, and doesn't even take itself all too seriously (the title, the hashtag, etc.). I understand Multi is "putting his flavor" on it and is having a little fun with the title, but when the topic at hand is serious it's very difficult to side with a video that simply addresses and presents the topic so unprofessionally (no offense Multi, I'm sure you mean well). I know CursedLemon (who I know Multi looks up to) and other community members make videos with a similar presentation style but the issues they speak on (their take on game design choices, etc.) is nowhere near the same as speaking on a seemingly serious and widespread current community issue.
Here's the problem: 343 asks the CCs to look for maps for them to test gametypes internally, but those maps don't exist. Breakout was the exception because there were already Breakout maps - just not any from the community because nobody was building it. 343 didn't mention Grifball until they had Grifball maps to test internally. 343 didn't mention BTB until they had BTB maps to test internally. 343 didn't mention a 2v2 playlist until the contest was over following the BTB task. But therein lies the problem, because there was no Grifball gametype when 343 asked for Grifball, and now they're asking for Infection when there's no infection gametype. So rather than curate the available community content (of which there was none), they asked the CCs to outsource the testing grounds for them in advance. The Cartographers were unable to do their job because the content wasn't there. See this trend? The only reason there is any controversy is because 343 is not making an official announcement about what's coming up next until it's hot on the heels of the update because they don't have anything to show it with. Literally all of this could have been avoided by having all the gametypes launch with the game. Infection is the oldest Forged gametype but there are hardly any maps because the gametype isn't there. The majority of the content they're asking for isn't being made until they ask for it, and only the establish Forgers have the resources to work within that time frame. I have a good feeling 343 is working on bringing back Invasion with Elites and all. It might be far off in the distance but it would be the only big new gametype they could debut after Infection. Who wants to guess how many Invasion maps there will be prior to its announcement? The CCs will mention it two weeks in advance, and it'll leak and they'll look like they're playing favorites when the reality is that 343 is being hush about it because they don't have any maps for it.
Wow, even with lots of people saying lots, there's not enough info here to grok what this system is or if anyone is actually hosing it. Try some condensed points in bullet list form rather than paragraphs: Actions should be taken after things are calm and people are thinking clearly and the facts are known. Don't buy into everything someone says, even if they make good points. Ignore who is making the statements and evaluate each statement for its own merit. Blame rarely solves anything. Focus on problem solving instead. If someone is willing to learn from their mistakes, keep them and their experience. If they won't learn, ditch 'em. People should dial down their expectations when it comes to public recognition. Having some chance to create maps for the playlists is better than none (like it used to be). Try not to make them regret giving us this chance too much. Somebody please make a list of what this system/process does and how it does it. And how it fails. That should help a bunch. I shoulda wrote this genetic crap more Yoda-like. Too late! Edit: Goat's post above makes some of it clearer. It looks like this process is still too new and things haven't been worked out well yet. Learning curve. Let's hope someone's learning something. If 343 isn't figuring it out fast enough, maybe the CCs can push for a slow down?
Well, you guys managed to drag me back into this. Congratulations. Now it's time for me to make some unpopular statements that are sure to piss off people on all sides of the argument. First off, I'm very disappointed with the video. Leading up to it, Multi had reassured me that it wouldn't be an "anti-Duck" video, but rather an "anti-CC" video. He claimed he had dirt on everyone, even the pristine Warholic, and he was going to hit them all. That simply wasn't the case. I'll be one of the first to admit, yes, Duck has plenty of problems, but this video utilized circumstantial evidence (Going to Darth and Narb for dirt? Really? Because they totally don't have a horse in this race) and plenty of spin to make Duck look far worse than he really is. As some one that's been the target of character assassination plenty over the years, I found this video rather disconcerting, as what it really is is a hit piece on Duck. Now moving on to the two main arguments you use, I'd like to touch up on the drama with Creative Force as that's the subject I was more involved in. When Creative Force was formed, I was still on more or less good terms with Duck, Fated, and Warholic. I still chatted with them on skype on occasion. One major concern we ALL had about the group was the involvement of GodlyPerfection in it. Given his past, it wasn't beyond reason to believe that he would be utilizing this group as a Match Making Map Factory, or at the very least, only look at this group for content to push to 343 for Match Making, rather than the broader community. After the Breakout Task, the only Cartographer I was "friends" with anymore was Duck, and we talked about Creative Force and Godly again briefly. The heart of the conversation was that I was worried War and Fated would be upset with me about my rant on the Breakout Task, but they had interpreted it as an "Anti-GP" post, and were, for lack of a better word, supportive of it. Duck went on to tell me that he planned on warning Pokephile about Godly, as he was worried that featuring CF maps would be akin to giving GP undue credit. This is a sentiment I'm sure beyond a reasonable doubt that War and Fated shared, given their past stances on the subject. Here's the big kicker though: WE WERE WRONG. The stance against CF was never to not feature maps by the group, it was to credit the individuals rather than the collective. There was nothing insidious behind the reasoning there. And as we later learned, our belief that Creative Force was a MM Map Factory was wrong, and hence became a non-issue moving forward. There's good reason why no one (save myself a few times) has ranted about CF or GP since then. It became a dead issue where our original stance turned out to be the wrong one. And on that, Ray, I owe you an apology. Honestly, the biggest criticism I have towards Duck, and one that I have towards most Cartographers, is that he's stubborn and believe his particular interpretation of "quality" is the objective standard. Cartographers tend to think their highly subjective opinions on design philosophy, and consequently maps, is objective in nature, and therefor tend to only push maps that they inherently like. Essentially, Cartographers have a bias towards particular styles of maps, which is something I warned about months ago in my Reddit post that I was lambasted over. But here's the funny thing about this criticism I'm posting now... Duck also bucks that criticism and pushes maps he doesn't like, because he understands he has certain biases, and he actively attempts to counter it. Duck had a major role in the recent BTB task, and guess what?! A lot of the maps he pushed are ones he doesn't particularly care for himself, but believed 343 would like to decide on for themselves as to which are the best choices for MM purposes. And that sort of unbiased action is something I look for in a Cartographer. That's the sort of action I respect. In short, while Duck and I most certainly bump heads from time to time, I think he's been a solid addition to the community. I would also like to chime in on my thoughts regarding how and why to add new members to the Cartographer group, but I'll save that for another time.
I feel like gametypes like Grifball and Infection are the exception simply because it's ridiculous to consider the devs making maps for them given that Grifball can plainly run off of a large box with a ball spawn point and two goals, which can be added in post of the update, and that infection is able to be run off of just about any map, although the better maps are certainly the imaginings of the community. Although it is true, going forward, that 343 should certainly be more open about their plans in adding maps to matchmaking so that people who want to act like children and only include their best friends' maps among other selfish acts appear as the bitches they are and so that forgers as a whole have more time to actually go through the map development process of building, testing, and perfecting, I feel like the gametype/content situation is a rather small facet of the problem. If Invasion and other big gametypes are released, and if 343 makes bigger moves to include more maps into matchmaking, I would agree that 343 should be more plain about it and communicate more prior to their release. But if it's evenly remotely true that people are playing favorites and the full potential of the community is being stunted by this, it must surely be investigated and routed. And the lack of communication between the CC's and the communities at large should be addressed as well. If they're not being proactive in their role as anyone's "mouth piece" then they're practically useless.
I agree. How is the CCs holding information regarding playlists any different than Multi and Given holding information on how to make metal. Now that's some ****.
Here's the structure of the video. I talk about the history of BS in the CC's. I talk about the system and how BS the system is. I talk about how many CC's are in the system. I bring up examples of CC's being dicks. The fact that it's a "duck bashing video" is because Duck has such an extensive history of being a gigantic douchebag. What's funny is that I have a dozen more screenshots of conversations and examples of Duck acting like this that opted NOT to put in the video because I didn't want it to seem like it was focued on him. Funny how that works out. I complemented the CC's I thought were doing a good job early on so I could avoid the situation you're describing of people discrediting ALL the cartographers. The title is a joke, I thought #Forgegate is hilarious. That's really all there was to it. Original takes were pretty cut and dry. I just honestly didn't think anyone would watch a 15 minute video with the tone it had before so I did retakes. I thought the screenshots would be proof enough to provide some grounding. Okay, first of all. Go **** yourself. You knew EXACTLY what this video was and you were urging me to post it for the days prior. I didn't go to anyone for dirt, pretty much everything was sent to me from people wanting to contribute. You KNOW this too. As I've just told you, I NEVER said I ever had ANYTHING on War, other than the fact that he backed out of the F.W relations when he shouldn't have, he should've been a better leader and I even say this in the video. As for all the CC's, I DONT HAVE ANYTHING ON THEM, even if there was some shady **** I knew about there's no evidence to back it up. Again, we've talked about this a dozen times and now you're doubling back against me. EVERYONE KNOWS Duck is bias, this isn't even up for discussion. You're letting your personal bias get in the way because Duck actually talks to you unlike War. You've made it very clear you don't like War, and that's fine. But there's literally nothing he's done wrong I don't know what's so hard to grasp about this, it's pretty obvious you have more personal bias than anything. Regarding creative force. Anyone using common sense who's reading that quote knows the intentions, and there's absolutely no way you can spin that to make it justifiable. Seriously, AZN's history means jack ****. It's no one business telling ANYONE not to feature a map. If he actually had an issue with the forgers being taken advantage of, why wouldn't he message those forgers, instead of youtubers? Stop trying to justify everything he does because he's "your friend" I don't care how much of your friend he is, if you can't look at the screenshots in the video and about a dozen more and objectively realize that this guy is probably the root of all issues in the CC system. His character at this point isn't even up for debate and honestly this is the slimiest bullshit you've pulled. You're slimy and two faced. Don't talk to me anymore. EDIT: Also the channels Duck messaged, had NOTHING to do with Creative Force. How would messaging media outlets have ANYTHING to do with anything.
Multi, you're one of my friends, so seeing you post that is a bit hurtful. You're getting a little too caught up in your intense dislike of Duck that it's warping your perception of reality here. The bottom line is, your video was a hatchet job on Duck, and that's clear as day to anyone that watches it. I told you leading up to this that I wanted to see the video, I wanted to see an "anti-CC" video. I even mentioned to you that if it's an "anti-Duck" video, I'd dislike it. I made several attempts prior to you releasing this video to explain that your story on the CF bit wasn't exactly forthcoming, that you were spinning it. I even gave you excerpts of my conversation with Duck that showed a little more to the story than what you were telling. I wanted to see an unbiased and truthful video, and I have absolute confidence that you were capable of making such a thing. You didn't make such video, so I posted my stance on the subject. I wanted to explain the other side of the story. And no, I'm not defending Duck because he featured my map. I'm not defending Duck because I want to "stay in the know". While I do want to stay in the know, YOU know damn well I have no problem biting the hand that feeds in order to do the right thing. If Duck does something that really upset me, I would put him on blast. **** sake, you're my friend and I'm putting you on blast! That should say something. But whatever. Think what you want man. When you're ready to play nice and get along, I'll be here waiting to frag some bitches on Doom.