[Suggestion / Opinion] Community Involvement and Map Submission Process - Part 1

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by Nitro, Mar 30, 2016.

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Options Going Forward

  1. Option A - Stay the Course

  2. Option B - Condense the Cartographers

  3. Option C - Add more Cartographers

  4. Option D - Develop new Cartographer sytem

  5. Option E - Develop new submission process

  6. Option F - Remove Cartographer system

  7. Option G - Remove community content

  8. Option H - Other (Please Explain in Comments)

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Nitro

    Nitro Guilty Spark

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    Introduction
    Hello everyone,

    If you are coming into the thread, please take the time to read the entire post, especially before voting in the associated poll. There will constructive thoughts in this post that will allow us to see both bad and good thoughts on the Community Cartographer system and Map Submission process. So please just read, let’s keep the discussion about what is posted here (so nothing personal against any CC or anyone about the process, we’re not here to discuss that) and let’s be civil on this topic of discussion. If there are any personal attacks within this thread, I would like to publicly ask @a Chunk and the Forge Hub moderators to either edit the post or delete it. I do not want this thread to be derailed and have people pointing fingers at anyone. One last thing, this post is not associated with the Creative Force team or any affiliation with the current Community Cartographers (their comments are welcomed). This is just me with an outside perspective, trying to solve an impossible task. With the disclaimer out of the way, let’s proceed to why we are all here.​

    Community Cartographer History

    I’m not going to give a full in depth history lesson of the Community Cartographer and the past experiences, because the information that I have learned has been through common talk. If anyone has any credible knowledge on the matter, please PM me, so I can update this section with a links and TL;DRs.


    My Personal Thoughts (Brief Background / Personal Perspective)
    When I started publicly submitting my forge creations in 2010, I had no idea what a Community Cartographer was or how forge maps made it into the matchmaking system. All I cared at the time was learning about level design, forging, and playing Halo with people of the same interest (Customs). So needless to say, I am sure at some point all of us were in same situation. As everything evolved, being integrated to MLG Forums, Halo Waypoint, Neogaf, The Lan Network, Forge Hub, The Halo Council, Forge.World and many more, was essential. Especially if you wanted to people outside of your direct groups to play your map(s). I learned this after the fall of both MLG Forum and The Lan Network where both of the sites were catered to the competitive crowd. We get complacent with our communities and find ourselves integrated deeply, so looking outside of that community becomes a hard task.

    In that time, we have all come across a Community Cartographer at some point. We all have to remember, it’s a non-paid position these members that have taken on the task to help the community evolve and grow. To me, they have put in some of the hardest work this community has ever scene. Being able to handle how maps are submitted, being professional as a public figure, to the simple fact of taking blunt attacks from community who feel it’s necessary as they feel their negative voice will change something without providing any constructive feedback has to take a toll on one’s personal drive to continue on this quest. Deconstructive feedback has been a problem within our community for as long as I can remember. It’s wrong, it needs to stop, and we should rather be providing a more constructive feedback (both negative and positive) with our comments as they will hold more value than anything deconstructive. Let’s get back to the community.

    Since then more communities have grown over the years that have become more influential than we ever could imagine. /r/Halo, Beyond Entertainment, various Halo twitch.tv channels, and various Halo Youtube channels (Ducain23, Forge Labs, The Halo Forge Epidemic) that are strangely moving the community in a more evolved public form. I couldn’t be happier seeing how the community is growing. Even the 343 team (Brav, Unyshek, Tom French, BSAngel) has been actively involved with our communications to them. I could list all of the communities that we as players and forgers could allow us to be more involved with the community. There are as diverse as any platform could ask for. From Race to Grifball to Competitive to Mini-Games. Halo itself has become a platform that we all come to play, because we all love this community. We may hate it sometimes, but deep down you actually care about it. That’s why everyone is so passionate over this Community Cartographer’s topic of discussion.

    The masses will just point fingers at the affiliated members of the Community Cartographers group, at no attempt to provide any neutral feedback on the process which is turns the situation that we are currently in, into a much deeper state. So beyond what we have currently, I wanted to take this time to explain my opinion on how we can change the way community interacts with the Cartographers and how they can put a positive spin on this negative situation that seems to have lasted far too long.​


    Where Should We Go From Here?
    During the end of The Halo Council and my continuing education in Computer Science, I decided to take a break from the Halo community. It started to take a toll on personal life and I felt the necessity to leave for sometime, plus the XBOX One was too much for me at the time. From the two years (2013 - 2015), whenever I could play something I reverted to a game that I played during my high school years, Counter Strike. At the time Counter Strike: Global Offensive was near 18K concurrent players, since then the Community has overwhelmingly evolved to a staggering 300K concurrent players with peaks nearing 1 Million, becoming the second most played game on Steam. So what did the CS:GO community do to achieve this?

    Well a few months prior to me joining this game, CS:GO was introduced to the Steam’s new platform, the Steam Workshop. A place where custom made items could be shared with the masses. With CS:GO, as level designers Steam Workshop offered a centralized place where everyone view maps and judge them for what they were (think of Forge Hub’s map section). Even that, when you subscribe to a map (similar to our bookmarking system) in the Steam Workshop, when the creator publishes an update you the player would not need to go out a redownload the map to test it out. The update would be simply applied to current map in your saved files. The workshop opened a lot of opportunities for the game. Here’s where the fun started for game’s exponential growth.

    Similar to our REQ system, Valve decided to introduce a system called Operations. Comprised of Weapon Skins, Community Made maps and challenges for the community to play to earn more weapon skins and Challenge coins. The caveat to this, the Operations cost the consumer some amount of money in order to be involved. Which was a brilliant idea. The revenue has been staggering a number to the point where Valve had to up their security standards because people were creating bots to steal people’s highly valued items. Another side effect to the Operations, map and weapon skin creators receive a percentage of the revenue that was generated during that operation time period. After gaining that knowledge, my genius plan was to start making levels for CS:GO. Soon that got drowned out by work and school, so that plan flew out the window. Back to the point, so Valve implemented a solid system that would allow player growth, revenue growth, and community involvement. All because of the Steam Workshop and CS:GO Operations.

    Now, how does one get their level or weapon skin into these operations? Submit your design to the CS:GO workshop, meet the operation requirements, and gain an overwhelmingly support from the community by their voting system. When you publish a design, any registered Steam user can go through the Steam Workshop and vote on your design whether it’s appealing to the eye or the functionality, the community has to be involved for this system to work. A little backup history before I speak on the next item, I spoke with known community level designers for tips on learning the Hammer editor (CS:GO’s level designer) during my venture in CS:GO level making, in turn I helped them test their designs during play tests. For my fact check, I recently reached out and spoke with FMPONE, known for making some of the best maps in CS:GO to date. During our conversation, I informed him of our situation here in our community and how does CS:GO prevent such controversies as ours. So one thing that he suggest is this,

    “I think the developer” (343 Industries) “needs to have a private selection process and be fearless about what UGC they include in the game or don't include. IMO it's not viable to try to make everyone happy, but to select the best creations according to the (hopefully very experienced) Developer's preferences and evaluation” - FMPONE

    With a map submission process and voting system like the Steam Workshop, both more and better community involvement and a decisive decision made upon the quality of the content, we’re clearly hinting towards a common goal for community. If we decided as community to redirect these and implement at least some of these changes as Valve did with CS:GO, Halo would honestly jump up in player’s returning to play Halo 5 because these hold interest of both the community and 343i.​


    Options Going Forward

    So I listed a few options below but before begin reading them, please remember to take the time to vote in the poll to help generate some sort of sense where our common voice should be directed towards. I also included some not-so-good options to give a perspective on the matter.

    Option A: Stay the course; Do not change anything from current Community Cartographer system.
    Option B: Condense the amount of Community Cartographers to allow more direct focus on limited content.
    Option C: Adding more members to Community Cartographers to allow a more broad perspective on getting content from the community. Possibly lessening the quality of content.
    Option D: Developing a new Community Cartographer system. A rotation period of Cartographers (2 min - 4 max years?) along with a nomination / voting process. Map submission / selection process stays the same.
    Option E: Keep current Community Cartographer system but implement a new process of how content is submitted, published and selected for matchmaking. Either use Forgehub’s current map section or have 343 implement a site/tool like Steam Workshop.
    Option F: Remove Community Cartographer system. Limiting our community involvement / map selection process to only 343 employees.
    Option G: Remove all community content from the Halo platform.
    Option H: Other (Please explain in comments)

    Some of the options are a bit extreme, but I threw them out there because they aren’t actually a real solution to the problem. After reviewing the entire post, I am sure most of you can relate to which option that I would support. It would allow transparency up to the point of the decision making of whether a map is ready for matchmaking or not. It allows a process that can be publicly announced where map content is needed, ie Race maps (just a suggestion), to allow the community to becoming more actively involved in the development process of how the maps are made and whether or not the map is worthy of making it into matchmaking. We all want a fair and just system. And with that I will lead into my final remarks.


    Final Remarks
    First off, I want to thank everyone here for taking the time to review this important matter. We all have a voice, let’s use it constructively and positively to the point where we all want to see the Halo community. Second, I personally want to thank 343 Industries for making an amazing forge system, never would I thought we would see something this good coming from so far. Thirdly, the Community Cartographers, whether the system is wrong or whatever one’s personal opinion on a certain CC, they have dealt with some heavy lifting for the Halo community and helped shape the content over the years (both good and bad). Lastly, I want to thank the community to who are just as passionate as I am about this game, who care about how this game should evolve and how we all want the best content for community. You guys are doing some amazing work. We are here together. Some of you I call my personal friends and that’s the truth. So thank you again everyone.


    -Nitro
     
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  2. Merder Smerf

    Merder Smerf UCC:Forge

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    Its a little hard for me to vote because I don't think I completely understand the system, and so I'm not sure what part of it isn't working.

    It seems like what is most upsetting to people is the feeling that they just aren't made aware that maps are being selected and the idea that CCs are just picking maps from a pool of close friends, or individuals who are favored for one reason or another. I think people want to know when maps are being looked at so they can try and make a submission, and then they want to know that their submission will actually be considered, and considered purely on merit.

    So I don't know why no one seems to be aware that CCs are looking for BTB maps or whatever the case. I know that I live on this forum and I had no idea. I also don't yet make MM quality maps so I'm not salty about it but I understand why people are.

    But if the problem is that people aren't being told that maps are being searched for, and they don't think they are getting a fair shake at getting into MM, then the problem seems to lie in simple communication, or a lack thereof. Would making changes to the way CCs are selected or how long the term infix that? I'm not sure but I doubt it.

    Should the community vote directly with no electoral process at all? Well that depends. If you can keep it somehow to forgers and people who have taken the time to try and understand level design that could work. There is the item of what 343 wants a halo map to play like to consider- and it is a private company making their own product so all that is their prerogative like it or not. More likely though you are going to have educated and ignorant voters and possibly many more of the latter. Theres a reason the founders didn't actually give any power to the people, simply the illusion of for the purpose of pacification. The average hate-spewing xbl squeaker has no business picking what maps I play lol.

    The solution needs to be transparency. A system that is very clear about it's process and purpose. At least when maps are being qualified. How do I get a map good enough for MM and get someone to stamp it as eligible? Then if the actual selection process needs to be secret per 343 at least you know your map is in the running.
     
    #2 Merder Smerf, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
  3. Nitro

    Nitro Guilty Spark

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  4. Merder Smerf

    Merder Smerf UCC:Forge

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    So if I'm reading that right you make a map, its gets played in the CS:GO version of "customs" and then the devs go and pick the best from whats being played? Is there an actual voting process the community at large participates in? I like this. I think the fear would be, hey how do I get my map noticed in the first place? But if the devs are really being thorough thats excellent- I can't imagine they are tho, its just so much content to pour over.

    Also when they talk about money for the map maker, $23,000??? is that real money or is it like cs:go money? it can't be real money right? is it?...
     
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  5. Xandrith

    Xandrith Promethean
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    First of all, great post. I think we are on the right track.

    Forgive me If I am wrong, but It seems like the "negativity" you are referring to were my posts. You are right, they were pretty negative, but here's why.

    I didn't post that thread to solve the issue, as I didn't feel I was qualified to do so. I simply wanted to show everyone my experiences and what I thought was happening. In some points, I was wrong. But, In some points, I was too generous. How many times before have people written articles like this, giving wholesome and thoughtful feedback? I have seen it many times, NEVER yielding results. I also believe that any negativity I "started" was already present in a much more passive aggressive manner.

    I'll let you guys take it from here, but just know that it was my intention for the community to come together and create a solution after I got the attention of as many people as possible.

    EDIT: Just read Chunks post.
     
    #5 Xandrith, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
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  6. a Chunk

    a Chunk Blockout Artist
    Forge Critic Wiki Contributor Senior Member

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    I'm going for option 'H'. On the whole, I don't think changing the quantity of cartographers, or even changing who's in the position of cartographer will really change much. They're working within a set of guidelines, and it's largely those guidelines that have resulted in the complaints that have surfaced over the years (I realize that there are individual situations and individual CC's that people have been upset about, but I'm looking at this from a big picture perspective).

    The main thing that needs to change is the level of transparency. People need to understand how the process of getting a map in matchmaking actually works, first and foremost. This means that there needs to be a set process in place, which there isn't currently. Sometimes CC's are told which maps will go into matchmaking, and they're just tasked with making sure they're up to matchmaking standards. Other times the CC's they have a march larger voice in determining what makes it into matchmaking. Sometimes they're given very short time frames for tasks, and other times they have significant advance notice. Sometimes they're allowed to make tasks public, and other times they're not.

    The entire process needs to be consistent, predictable, and understandable. Making wholesale changes to the CC's and expecting the results to change would be like plugging a brand new toaster into an outlet that only works sporadically, and expecting the toaster to work perfectly all the time. So yeah, I agree there should be some changes. I just think those changes need to be made at a more fundamental level.
     
  7. Nitro

    Nitro Guilty Spark

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    Yes it's real money. I know it would be a difficult thing for Microsoft to allow payouts for community created content. Maps are noticed by people voting to maps on the Steam Workshop http://steamcommunity.com/app/730/workshop/ Take a gander.

    It wasn't just your post. It's been happening for years. I felt compelled to say what I had to say since the community was in full force of blaming the cartographers. I just wanted to throw a neutral approach to the real issue. I think we all (including the CCs) want something better to help out the community in a positive way.
     
    #7 Nitro, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
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  8. Merder Smerf

    Merder Smerf UCC:Forge

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    honestly that middle paragraph alone makes the whole thing a lot more clear in my mind. See I didn't know any of that. All I knew was- CCs pick the maps that go to MM when 343 asks for them. So yea, transparency is the answer.
     
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  9. Nitro

    Nitro Guilty Spark

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    Totally agree. The process that we currently have (even in the past) has been kind of on the word of mouth sort of thing. People are starting to take notice since the process isn't clear at the moment. Which leads to rumors / assumptions, that causes rifts like this. I can see the thought of having a whole new process won't actually fix the problem, but I was only suggesting stuff like the Steam Workshop merely for the fact that CS:GO's map submission process is transparent (up to the developer selection), concise, and all around professional.
     
  10. Skyward Shoe

    Skyward Shoe BTB Legend
    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    Option H - How I would like to see the system for the future:

    • I would like 343i to publicly announce each task. This way it is perfectly clear and no one gets mad at the middle-men. This way anyone who wants to can prepare a map for matchmaking. I think that this will cause more maps to be made for the area in general. A lot more maps will be bad of course, but this can act as a learning experience for people. Hopefully this will also result in more good maps as well, giving more options to choose between. I understand the sentiment that people should make maps to make maps and not to get them into MM, but I understand that this isn't always realistic and I think this would be the best outcome.

    • I think the CC team should be expanded only as necessary to ensure expertise. I'm not sure if there is an Infection CC right now, so that would potentially be a good addition. I think revising the current CC list would be fine, as I believe that most, if not all of them, would stay on due to their hard work on the past few tasks. Some of you have no idea how much work these guys do to get things ready to ship. We definitely do not want less CC's, as that means less people looking through the maps, so more will be missed.

    • I would like to see less people ripping the CC's a new one when they do not deserve it. A lot of people seem to think that the group is just picking the maps from a group of their friends, and I can assure everyone that this is not the case. The group starts by looking at every single map posted on any Halo website, including Forgehub, Halocustoms, 343.org, Halo Waypoint, Reddit, youtube, andy anywhere else maps are posted. Every map is considered, and if asked for feedback will be provided on any map, often on multiple iterations. As maps are looked at each CC is building a list of maps that have potential, regardless of who built the map. As a reference: When going over maps for the last Meet Your Maker contest we often did not look at the author until after we had formed an opinion on the map, when possible. These guys are actively trying to find the best maps possible from the community, so it really irks me to see rumors being spread about them after all of the work they do for the community.

    • As a side note: some people have brought up the idea of doing maps entirely through popular vote. My response is below.

     
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  11. MultiLockOn

    MultiLockOn Ancient
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    The MYM Maker results were product of some of the most bias judging I've seen in the entire history of the forge community.
     
  12. Nitro

    Nitro Guilty Spark

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    @Flying Shoe ILR

    I like your take on this. I have seen some hard work coming from the CC's. It's amazing how much they do and how little respect they receive. Also they are doing the job for FREE. That's crazy.

    Yes, less cartographers is a bad idea, but I tried to be neutral to the idea and allow those who really felt compelled to vote that direction and to give them an opportunity to do so.

    I keep hinting towards the Steam Workshop system, if we had anything remotely the same in conjunction with the community cartographers, that would be my ideal choice. A place where things can be announced, viewing of maps, and voting for the BEST maps in one central location. Sub communities like FH can still operate, but for submission purposes and bookmarking (file browser) of maps would be a central for all things Halo in the community content department.
     
  13. Skyward Shoe

    Skyward Shoe BTB Legend
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    @MultiLockOn

    You can PM me about this if you want to discuss it, since it is off topic to the thread.
     
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  14. AlexVan123

    AlexVan123 Halo Customs

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    I honestly think that it's not a problem with how the CCs are doing things, but rather it's the way that they interact with the community. Hell, the only way that anyone on r/halo knew that there was a planned 2v2 playlist because War had to write it in order to hopefully end a debate on the subject of it. The interaction between the CCs and the community is almost non-existent, except when Nok or someone happens to stream it for whatever reason, which makes no sense. Bravo happens to comment on most issues on the Halo sub, so why can't we have that kind of interaction between the CCs and the community? Sure, the NDAs may be strong, but Bravo, Uny, whoever from 343 comments on that stuff, does it UNDER NDA. It takes more transparency than a wall to stop hate. I'm not hating on the CCs themselves. They're fine people, and they're trying as hard as they can to increase the amount of community content available to mainstream players. Either the 343 people or CCs should be able to tell well in advance "Hey, we need submissions for a planned 2v2 playlist".
     
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  15. MartianMallCop

    Forge Critic Senior Member

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    I think that Flying Shoe ILR has pretty much the exact solution that I think would be best and if they don't make tasks public, people should just make what they are passionate about and if it's appropriate for matchmaking, that's great, if not too bad.
     
  16. NOKYARD

    NOKYARD GrifballHub
    Cartographer Forge Critic Senior Member

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  17. Blaze

    Blaze Sustain Designer
    Forge Critic Creative Force Senior Member

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    Keeping it private is a terrible idea. Then, just like before (aside from blueprint submission) only cartographers and friends of get their maps in. That shouldn't even be an option, in my opinion.

    One thing that I haven't seen explored in theory is 343 tasks being open to any and all maps. There is a heads up, every month or so that maps will be added and no theme. That way people know when to have their maps polished by but there isn't a specific task everyone is competing for just generally looking for quality maps that have been posted and worked on since forge's released.

    This would reduce the outpour of maps of one specific gametype or player size and entice people to forge quality maps constantly. I could make the maps in playlists better overall too because they wouldn't NEED to find maps to fill a certain playlist and if one is made after the deadline, there is a chance it can be added next month.

    Then we would need to replace some cartographers with more knowledgeable, less bias people that are closer to the community and less stuck in their clique.
     
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  18. Nitro

    Nitro Guilty Spark

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    Care to explain this a little more?

    I like this idea a lot. Sort of like how Forge Hub currently operates. Forgers who like forging Grifball courts will continue to do so, same with Competitive forgers, etc. The only problem with this, 343 would need to create either a permanent community playlist or something to the effect to allow maps from all areas (race, comp, grif) to be considered and rotated in, within a timely manner.

    Having something like CS:GO's operations could help something like this. Having a more permanent playlist style and with rotation of maps during the operation period, maps can rotate in and out of the playlist without showing any personal biased opinion one particular map set. Rather having a set of maps (or theme) that has the potential of getting rotated in. If a map like Scavenger is well received, 343 should consider keeping it in the permanent playlist for a longer period of time.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 30, 2016 ---
    You would be the richest forger alive :)

    Receiving revenue from the content that you created sounds appealing. I honestly do not know how those creators are paid, but I am assuming its something that is legitimate.

    Here's a question, if a paid DLC was a part of this change process and the top quality of maps were chosen, do you think people would pay to play during the operation (3 months)??
     
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  19. WyvernZu

    WyvernZu Forge Critic
    Forge Critic

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    Maybe have a review system which let's you give a score of 1-5 in different categories like gameplay and aesthetics after you've played the map? The review prompt would pop up after you've finished playing the map.
     
  20. Merder Smerf

    Merder Smerf UCC:Forge

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    or at least have a way to put that in on forge hub. and then maybe community vote can count for 1/3 of the final decision or something when 343 makes the final call. i've heard suggestions to keep the maps anonymous during a voting phase so its completely impartial. I like that idea as well.
     
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