Hey ForgeHub. As many of you know, I'm the community level designer that was tasked with reimagining Longbow (now Recurve) during my visit to 343 Industries in September. I hope you are having a mostly positive and competitive experience in Big Team Battle, and now that the forge maps are officially released, I wanted to take a moment to share my original vision for Recurve. You may recall the purple WIP two-base map (the one with all the spartan parkour and pro jumps) from episode 4 of The Sprint below: By the end of my week-long visit at 343, the original vision for Recurve evolved into the following design mass out (recreated in Maya): My original vision included a thoroughly designed dual sniper engagement across the lower edge of the map, which was a huge part of my counter-play + movement incentive design from base-to-base and base-to-central structure. The sniper rifles were placed in positions with limited/situational power, which created movement incentive into the highly contested central structure to earn those dominant lines of sight into the enemy base/courtyard. The dual sniper engagement deterred flag movement along the lower edge of the map as well, thus encouraging more flag movement along the curve of the central structure. The top bases were balanced by both the constant threat of enemy sniper fire + a complex, vertical, 3-leveled central structure with connections to both the inner and outer sides of the bases via curved vehicle/infantry paths. As you may recall from the spartan parkour sequence on The Sprint, the original base design had man cannons that launched players into the central structure. This was a big part of my initial movement incentive & heroism design, as the man cannon-landing pad interaction allowed for some super fast, vertical, and multi-directional big play opportunities across the courtyards. I originally had rockets placed at the top of the map as well, and skilled players could use their momentum from the man cannon to pro jump (thrust + stabilize + crouch) up to the third level of the central structure and make a big play on the power weapon. In regards to vehicles, the original vision was designed to only support light vehicles (ghosts and warthogs). My original vision intentionally excluded fast, direct vehicle routes across the map, and instead directed all vehicle flow along the curving arms of the central structure & through the central structure underpass, which exited via one-way drop offs into the courtyards. This design created a travel time balance between infantry and vehicles for CTF, which eliminated the common "point of no return" experience on most BTB maps where the flag is basically a guaranteed cap once you pass the half-way point on the map. The vehicle health system is super important as well, and was another key consideration with my original design. The multi-leveled, curving and winding nature of the vehicle circuit, which cut through the bases and central structure, was designed to keep vehicles moving fast and keep the occupants alive longer by systematically cutting off lines of sight as they moved--empowering vehicles in a faster, more directional combat role while simultaneous empowering infantry to move vertically to escape those directional encounters. If the gunner gets shot down, a driver with good understanding of the circuit can return to the base with minimal harm done to the vehicle, picking the gunner back up and re-entering the circuit from there. I passed the design off to the 343 Multiplayer Team at the conclusion of my trip, and although the bases have been mostly preserved, the entirety of the original central structure, routes, flow, movement incentive design, and weapon/objective placement was significantly changed and iterated on after I left. Anyway, just wanted to share my original vision for the map, and I plan to rebuild something closer to the original vision for competitive games/tourneys on BigTeamBattle.net later on. Please let me know your feedback on the developer release of Recurve below, and I'll be sure to pass on what I can to the design and multiplayer team at 343 Industries! -Kyle
I get the feeling that gameplay wise alot of the cartographer's work on all the 3 maps they made was butchered.
The original concept looked sweet and I was stella excited for its BTB debut. Shame it changed so much. Penny for your thoughts on the 343 reworked version of Recurve? If you'd rather not talk about it or can't for a legal reason we could be unaware of that's fine.
I don't think that's true. Guillotine and Deadlock seem to have stayed pretty close to the original versions geometrically.
Among other things I really don't understand why they added a cover to the back of the bases and replaced them with grav lifts so you can no longer climb onto it. I played a CTF game on Recurve where both teams had the flag and there was a stalemate for at least 5 minutes because both flag carriers were camping behind the base and picking off anybody that may have seen them behind the base with the flagnum.
I can't wait to try out your original version. Maybe you should try a different canvas when u start though.
Super solid base designs. Seems like they did a really good job with fixing it up after you guys left. Vehicles and weapons I feel were terribly reiterated but that's an easy fix. The top mid structure is a little cramped but if the cover was taken out and it was opened, I think it would pretty much fix the rest of the issues it has.
This is probably my least favorite BTB map. I have about the same complaints as the rest of the FH community does in regards to Recurve. I think Psychoduck did a good job demonstrating the issues on the most recent FH map analysis on Youtube. With that said, I still enjoy the map. Even with the issues, I still enjoy every match I have played thus far. I wish 343 would have stuck with your original design because it appears that it would have fixed most issues that the community seems to have. I am not surprised that 343 changed things around once you left. Look at the community maps we have had in matchmaking in the past. It is like 343 purposely tries to pick the worst creations they can find. 343 has included some amazing community maps, but it is usually at the end of a games career. For example, by the time we got the infection update with good community maps and gametypes, Halo 4 was dying. I don't understand how 343 (or Bungie) can make such fun and amazing disc maps, but are complete noobs when it comes to forging. They should stick with disc maps and leave the forge maps to the forgers. At least you had the chance to forge early and I hope it was worth your time, even though they changed your original map. I suppose 343 inviting you guys out to Seattle is at least a step in the right direction.
I think this is just down to the way the maps are made. We have forge as our only tool, and while it has have a multitude of options, we are constrained by the limitations of what is made available to us. 343 on the other hand a so much more in terms of tools to create from, being able to create more than what we could possibly come close to within forge (not to say there aren't maps and creators out there that don't push the limits of what forge is capable of). The skills aren't necessarily easily transferred.
Unrelated but i was wondering this, The Fated Fire , whats the third variant of the Glacier canvas? we have already seen the sunny one (yours) and a mid day one.
Hey @The Fated Fire you wouldn't happen to have the scene file for the maya blockout would you? Curious to see it from some other angles, the super narrow fov and unlit screenshots are weird to look at.
@The Bilzo, hit me up on Skype Updated OP with a few more images of my original vision from both Halo Channel content and my Maya build. Screenshots show the original bottom mid design, courtyard-to-courtyard LoS, and the 2nd + 3rd levels of the central structure: The original central structure had a 3-story lift as well, and players could drop back down the shoot and use the thruster mechanic to exit on different levels. Was a super nerdy way to out-maneuver opponents and move both vertically & creatively through the center of the map.
I am highly critical of 343's reworked vision/version, and @Psychoduck did an amazing job of expressing our shared concerns in a respectful, honest analysis of the map. Structure design, movement incentive, verticality, empowerment, heroism, big-play design, travel time balancing, weapon/objective placement, and spawning are all difficult concepts to grasp and successfully implement. Level/game design is a never ending learning process, and it is very important that we remain respectfully critical of game developers so that they can continue learning with us. @Mr Bouncerverse: That's the plan!
343 map developers have studied map design for years They have college degrees. They changed it for the casual audience. Go make your own game if you know better.