Well guys, it's been about a month and a half now and we're still running into glaring issues with forge. One major reoccuring issue that I've noticed comes disguised as a connection issue where players start black screening uncontrollably or get booted from the game immediately. One would think at first glance that it's just a bad connection, but after having ran several solid custom lobbies lasting several hours a piece, I've realized this issue only crops up with certain forge maps. These certain maps in particular happen to have this issue practically every time too, which further hints its something specific to them. What could it be? Object count. Yes, object count. We were all so happy when the budget system was done away with, only to learn that we're stuck with a hard object count limit of 650. Worse yet, spawn points and objectives counted towards that limit. Now, it appears even worse. That limit of 650 is a lie. While I can speak for sure as to what the actual limit is, I can confidently say that breaking 600 objects will cause players to be kicked from the match when the map is played in customs. Frankly, I'm worried that breaking 550 objects may cause this issue to arise. It gets even worse still with maps intended for higher player counts, as with every additional player in the game the more likely the problem will occur. Sadly, this all but ruins forge for anything outside of 4v4 map designs as BTB designs are gimped to require ridiculously low object counts in order for the map to load properly. Hopefully this issue will get addressed in a future patch. It needs to be fixed. As it stands, we have reached a point where despite the vast improvements to forge, we're worse off than in H4 or even Reach due to these object limitations.
Thanks for that Schnitz. I am amazed at how disappointing this has been. I'm setting up my xbone as I type this & even though I've heard all these complaints I couldn't wait to get it. Guess I'm hopeful for the fixes but man this is ridiculous.
to add to this, i think object complexity also plays a roll based on what i've seen. maps that are made out of a lot more simple objects can be stable with dangerously high object numbers where as maps using a lot of complex objects struggle badly when breaking 500. the entire behaviour of it leads me to think that it's a RAM overflow issue.
Yeah, it's a bit of a drag. Forge is still pretty great given we have some massive blocks (10x10s) and the blocks all have a clean cohesive texture, but the budget limitations (both explicit and tacit) are a real buzz kill.
Yeah, add on that the framerate issues you get when you're not even remotely close to the object count, and it can be a real pain. My puzzle map I'm working on isn't even at the 200 object mark yet (and over 60 of those objects are just Timers and Switches, i.e. non-visible objects), and I'm already seeing framerate issues in-game (note that these are not framerate dips that show up on the "performance meter" but just something you notice in-game). I think there's something really off with their optimisation for Forge; I'm just hoping it's something patch-able, and not a more deep-rooted issue. In the meantime I'm hoping I can segment my puzzle rooms into far-off corners of the map, linked with teleporters, in the optimistic belief that it will help mitigate framerate. Edit: Tried this, and nope, seems it doesn't matter how far away you are from objects, or whether you can see them or not, they will still affect your framerate - sigh, this is what I get for trying to actually add aesthetics to my puzzle maps; back to simple blocky rooms it is! Oh yeah, and of course don't forget the other object issue; which is that forge objects won't even load onto the map at all for non-host players if you have "too many objects". I've seen someone make a map filled with trees, only for it to be a barren wasteland for me because none of the rocks or trees loaded onto the map - yet looked fine to him. It almost makes me just want to go back to forging in Halo 3...
I'd like to know what objects you used because I can often get to two hundred objects without issue. I only get issues as I close in on three hundred and fifty objects or I can run into to it sooner if I use lights. I noticed lights tend to be more problematic when rooms are involved. This would explain my inability to have lights on maps that I thought I was going to be able to use them on.
To be fair, I was using the more "complex" objects; bunkers, window coliseums, walkway larges, wall coliseums, etc. I was going for a more "metallic" look, instead of it all just being cement walls, But no joke, in terms of actual visible objects, I'd barely placed 100. By the time I hit 250 objects it had become ridiculous. I remember using similar object sets before in Reach though, without hitting these framerate issues, so *shrugs* Well anyway, it's back to cement for everything, and even then I've had to use some scripting to spawn in and out entire puzzle rooms at a time, so that I have as few objects on the map at any given time as possible; which does seem to do the trick, unlike my optimistic approach that objects being far away enough would work (I'm pretty sure that trick used to work in Reach?!). Oh well... And yes, the lights are an issue too. All my enclosed puzzle rooms now are forced to bathe in darkness - I guess it makes for an extra challenge!
if you take a good look at a lot of the metalic objects you'll notice the majority of its geometry are actual polygons but it gets worse, not only are they polygons but they're repeating objects joined together as one object. so instead of one pipe being say 12 polygons its more like 120 as its 10 joined together which is why we call them more complex. we had no issue with these objects in the past because they were pretty simple. this time though they decided to add a lot of geometry to them to try and make them look a lot better. IMO i think sticking to bumpmaps and giving us a much larger object limit would have been a tone better because it would still look good, allow us to keep things clean and really allows us to push the limits of map design inside halo. @buddhacrane just a warning, not all objects can be despawned.
I don't know why they didn't just draw most of the objects as simple blocks and then use a texture on them to give them detail. Rather than actually draw the detail on the piece drastically increasing the polygon count. The bottom of bridges for example should have just been flat with a texture applied to add the pipes and other detail on it.
100% this. I focus on minigames and racetracks, and I've been posting about this for a while now. Adding to the problem is the fact that the map may seem fine with 1-3 people, but when you finally get it polished up for 10-16 it won't even load! I realized the issue in week 1 so I decided to only work on minigames and such since they require fewer objects (excellent H2A minigames on my file share). Personally, I've seen performance issues starting around 270 objects (not problematic objects) in large lobbies, so I've been trying to keep my maps that are intended for up to 16 players to under 200 objects. Here's some of my rants on the subject: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...b75-470e-b954-219136565c95/posts?page=1#post2 https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...892-4523-88f5-cf5883bb2276/posts?page=1#post3 https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...28a-4ef0-9cac-26fb844f9236/posts?page=1#post2 https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...503-42b1-9372-769b4d92d85f/posts?page=1#post3 https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...4eb-4fb2-a684-a9c981baf311/posts?page=1#post2 https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...28a-40c8-816b-a3135e67563c/posts?page=1#post2 https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...b87-466d-9685-ce9ff1f27f0c/posts?page=1#post4
As I've said before. It's really sad that this new forge engine, which adds little to the old forge engine and runs on a machine that is 8 years newer than the 360, runs worse than the old forge engines in many respects.
I see that spawns & objectives count towards the object limit but do they effect frame rate? I'm sitting at about 340-350 items without the spawn points, zones & objectives & I'm wondering if im goingvto be in bad shape. I just wouldn't think they would cause frame rate in customs if you can't see them so has anybody tested this? As in, having performance issues & then fixing it by deleting spawns & such?
My map is sitting around 370 structural objects. It was having very noticeable frame rate issues until I traded out 12 coliseum walls with 10x10 blocks. Now it appears to have no frame rate issues. The map doesn't quite have the same varied aesthetic look I preferred, but it runs smoothly now with a fix that wasn't too drastic. If I run into more frame rate problems while testing, I have another 6 to 8 coliseum walls I can trade out with 10x10's. Given the drastic improvement from trading out the coliseum walls before, I'm positive getting rid of most of the rest of them will have a positive effect.
A combination of lights and reflective surfaces can have a huge effect on framerate as well. Sometimes coliseum walls alone arent what causes the issue. Any of the black/green metal pieces in combination with lights can be bad news, especially on Skyward.
I agree too. There are obviously many issues with this new forge and object count is one. I am working on my first map for halo2, and have noticed this new forge is worse than Reach in many ways. Here are some of the issues I've noticed and some of the corrections Im using: -When I place a removable machine gun, it cause random pieces around it to not spawn when you start a new round. (So I dont use those) ***edit - The problem goes away if the turret spawns AFTER the blocks around it - those collosium walls are unusable. They create a noticable "lag?" whenever they came into view. (I replaced with 10x10 block, perfect now) - lights are pretty much unusable... again causing noticable lag as you view the reflections they caused off the pieces. (I removed them) - many shields in a hallway, especially if looking through multiple in a long view, causes awful lag. (Limit their use) - once my map hit 600, I've noticed pieces discoloring (staying pure black or light) or almost not spawning in time during the loadout screen. My map has about 550 real pieces, about 50 spawns, objectives, ect... (Im gonna reduce piece count, especially after reading this thread) Note--- my map is a mostly enclosed map. (Not open like blood glutch) So I also enjoyed the lovely "dynamic lighting". Unfortunately, the dynamic lighting in this game (as in halo 4) is horrible for enclosed maps. Very dark. You can hardly tell the difference between the floors and where the walls start. So I uses darker peices for walls and lighter pieces for floors/roofs. Helped abit, but that dynamic lighting is evil. What didnt help is the fact that I cant use the "lights", as they just cause lag from hell. So I decided to remove the dynamic lighting (by having pieces not spawn at start, instead spawning 2 seconds into the match, while players are still in the loading screen). This removed 90% of any framrate-lag issues. Amazing. And the interior of my map is no longer discolored. Now its bright and playable. I fully agree that SecretSchnitzel is right. Our piece count isnt 650. Hopefully they will correct this, and maybe give us a usable file-share, save game films locally, make joining customs easier, ect...