well, seeing as discussing the idea in the sign up topic is considered spam and punishable(i received a warning from APC) because it doesn't follow what the topic is meant for i'm creating a whole new topic to discuss the merits or anything else about the idea. so personally i'm not against more experienced forgers helping out newer forgers, in fact i do try to encourage it if the new forger is willing to listen instead of taking it as an attack. i am, how ever against this being on a 1 to 1 basis. why? because the end result creates something that we are now trying to avoid because it causes a lot of overall problems in the community, those problems being elitism and cliques and when these things start to occur you end up with community members constantly fighting each other and pushing other members away. this problem is created from how the newer forgers look up to the one person helping him/her and the forger helping feels a sense of higher entitlement because he/she has been helping other people. because that newer forger looks up to the one person helping him/her, he/she will have a tendency not to listen to other people and will take what the person is teaching him/her more as law, this starts to spiral out of control over multiple people creating a clique of people who only really praise each other. the person who is helping the newer forger/s will start to think that because of all these people that are starting to look up to him/her that he/she really is a highly knowledgeable person and other, perhaps most forgers are beneath him/her, he/she will then refuse to listen to other forgers trying to help him/her out and go out of his/her way to discredit the person helping and degrade maps that that person may have made. this was about the biggest problem with forgehub before and i really don't like to see it being encouraged through this idea. i'll say again that i do support and encourage helping of others but not on a 1 to 1 basis, it should be done and encourage on a community wide basis. with multiple people helping each other out you get lots of different points of views, ideas and theories that helps you grow as an individual. so, what are your thoughts?
you ninja. I already pm'd APC asking if I could do this lol. I agree, the concept of "teaching noobs" or even the connotation of "noob" will always lead to elitism. I think the system has a good intent (to help everybody learn) but I think it would be better off if we did it on more even ground than "mentor" and "noob."
My feeling on the matter is that it's best if the two go hand in hand. As you suggest, community involvement is of enormous importance because it exposes the learning forger to many different opinions. On the other hand, one on one interaction opens up the possible for deeper levels of discussion than what generally takes place in a customs lobby. Where in a lobby there may be comments about the spawns being less than desirable, in a one on one setting there can be a discussion about which spawns are potentially problematic, why they may be problematic, how to decide whether or not they're problematic, and how best to deal with any problematic spawns. I also feel that in a one on one sharing situation, it's the responsibility of the more experienced person to stress the importance of taking all feedback seriously. I always encourage people to question even the feedback I offer them, because I know that part of being a really good forger is being able to discern which feedback to listen to, because there will always be contradicting feedback. I don't think it should be an either/or proposition. I think each approach is effective on it's own in certain respects, but that the best policy is to implement both together.
I can see how this might cause elitism problems among a lot of people. Heck, even trying to talk about "adopting a new forger" makes me feel like a know-it-all elitist, even if I'm doing it just to help people. I think, personally, if you continue to remind the person to make their own decisions and that your word isn't the be-all/end-all, then there shouldn't be too many problems. Like Chunk said, make sure they listen to any and all feedback no matter who it comes from (but of course remember the ability to discern what feedback helps and what doesn't as well as make their own decisions) and remind them that what you say are simply suggestions and not facts or perfection. If that happens, it shouldn't be a huge issue. As for me, I think I'll probably benefit from this more than the "noobs". The best way to learn is to teach, and hopefully it'll help me in my own maps as well as theirs. (Because lets face it, I'm a sub-par forger with next to no experience and maybe 3 good maps under his belt).
It only becomes elitism when you express that your knowledge or opinion is right because of who you are, this is not a program to instill the notion that we absolutely know best, the point of this is to teach the basics so forgers don't make the little mistakes. To me Elitism is having a group listen to one person, rather than have a 1 on 1 conversation. Not a single person has mentioned any problem that there may be a express problem of elitism, in fact the word never showed up until you did. It would also be the most elitist person here to comment on it wouldn't it Haunted? You ~<3 I've asked all of the current candidates if they think the connotation noob is offensive to them. They do not feel it's derogatory in any way. I can change it, but you people are literally arguing Tomatoes with Tomatoes. Guys I appreciate the legitimate concerns, and while removing post from the other thread was a tad excessive, I don't want new forgers seeing that kind of attitude towards the group of people who are honestly taking time out to help them. We're here to do a simple thing, forge maps, and friends. Someone like yourself, couldn't see this because you have no tolerance of the new guys content, I don't know how many times you've joined a game (Sometimes in my lobby) told the new forger their map is ****, and left. If that isn't elitism, then I think I've got the wrong definition here. You guys are just discussing to be discussing, if you really think these ideas are sub-par, step up and prove it instead of spouting nonsense with no grounds.
I don't tell people they're maps are **** and leave. I tell them their map is ****, explain why I think their map is ****, tell them what kinds of changes I think could fix it (or whether I think the map is unfixable), and then leave. Forgehub has a reputation for staff corruption, elitism (Loyals etc) for a while. It is up to the staff to prove to the community that things have changed, because the staff are the ones who have failed the community in the past. Blindly trusting the staff is not something I'm prepared to do. So tell me; What will you do if somebody in this program complains about the name and/or its connotation? Or if somebody outside of the program complains? How many people does it take to enact a change? What will you do if a mentor in this program knocks a map the way you have described above? How will you make sure that the mentors actually know what they're doing (please no subjective stuff, this will lead to favoritism - I know it's hard to make things like this objective, that's why I am questioning this) and are actually helping? How will you know that the mentors aren't just making maps for people instead of teaching them? So does this last forever? Can you ever stop being a "noob"? It sounds good on paper and all.. but to me it looks like this wasn't something that was thought out in the long run.
Look I'm not one to sugar coat situations, I call like I see it. I'm sure if the forger feels he or she is mistreated they will tell me, because I've ultimately paired them up. I'll just swap them out, or take on the responsibility personally. As for the name, if enough people tell me hey, I don't like being labeled as a noob I'll change it. Hell, I'll change it now, just so you people would stop harping on it. You seem to be missing the point of all this. It's not about becoming a veteran or declassifying yourself as a noob. We already do this program on a daily basis with other forgers by asking them (Come take a look at my map.) The whole purpose of this program is to provide people to those forgers who do not have the active friendslist to pull other forgers from. That's why, I think you are all arguing the basis of this for arguments sake. Answer me this, why is it that every time someone tries to do good, there are a few select people who have to find the bad in it, and scale it much larger than the actual purpose of an idea. Improvement starts with realizing what is good, then beginning to understand what can make it better.
Then why is it not a list of gamertags / people that are willing to give feedback? Why this 1 on 1 "noob/new forger and mentor" relationship" where one person is obviously being put above the other? I would participate if this was something like "a has a map and can't get people on his friends list to test it, b and c too, let's all play the maps with a b and c and add them." Feedback should go both ways. This means that everybody behaves like equals, the new forgers get experience giving feedback about their time on the map, and everybody can say things to everybody. "Well, you can do that too, you don't just have to ask your mentor for feedback, you can ask anybody" - So what is the harm in putting this into the program? Let anybody ask anybody for help with anything. I know I'd ask people for help on occasion.
That's highly impersonal to just make a list, the forgers are encouraged to talk with other forgers as well, the mentor acts as a fast go to person for assistance. The 1 on 1 portion is to develop friends that keep them interested in forging. No one is forced to do anything particular, if they want to ask others for help as well it's fine no one is telling them not to. I'm not sure why you guys think I'm trying to clone forgers.
Nice try, PaperCraft. I kind of liked the idea, I don't know half as much as some on here, but I have a LOT to teach to someone who has just started. So if any beginners are reading this, please feel free to hit me up and add me and we will take a whizz through forge together. In the least elitist way possible, of course.
Haunted, what you describe may be in fact your experience. But I don't know that I have ever seen it as a wide spread issue - ever. I cannot agree with your assertion that this is something that is so pervasive that we must avoid 1 on 1 advising. You forged with me and by happenstance said exactly what I needed to hear. That probably would never have occurred in any other setting.