I meant, Having PP and plasma nades as loadouts is grossly overpowered and shouldn't be used as a point of reference when deciding how to balance a gametype. Because i was referencing your post which where you justified having at least 2 PP and 4 Pnades on the map because that is less then everyone spawning with them. The amount of PP and P nades on the map should be decided by the balance of the map and how powerful you what the vehicle force to be, If only 1 neutral PP so be it, If 0 PP and Pnades that's fine(power weapons and skilled anti vehicle weapons can take its place)
I think his point there was that Ghost looked to be using PP + Plasmas loadouts as a "baseline" for what's acceptable, which isn't a great idea. On this front, I agree with WWWilliam, but perhaps I've misinterpreted either or both of them. EDIT: Yeah, what WWWilliam said. Just a heads up, WWWilliam: Ghost was the one who made that point, then Spin asked the question to which you're responding. I think you're mixing them up. That said, I don't agree with WWWilliams assertion that PP + Plasmas on map aren't fundamental to vehicle balance. Sure, you may be able to properly balance a vehicle map without them, but I'd say it'll be the exception. CC is all very well, but not great to rely solely on since it's highly contextual in how effective it is (range, vehicle size etc.) and frags are a poor excuse for vehicle balance. It's not about taking skill, it's about giving effective anti vehicle measures. Vehicles themselves are more powerful than an on foot player even if the driver isn't great, so I dislike the idea that anti vehicle measures should have a high skill demand (which I'd actually say is actually more about ineffectiveness than fundamental skill in terms of your examples, WWWilliam) when the vehicles themselves don't necessarily have this same demand. It's like when people argued that the BS was balanced because it punished chasers, demanding more skill, completely ignoring how forgiving it was to the player using it. This argument only stands, once again, when a PP or Plasma must be gained in the same way a vehicle is, so I don't use it to support loadout availability by any means. I firmly believe that this is the most harmful thing for vehicle play ever seen in Halo. But WWWilliam, I think that your point about relying on power weapons rather than PPs is odd. In an anti vehicle context, the PP is a power weapon, just a less effective one, so why is relying on a laser any better? The PP is less effective, and so having ~2 a map seems reasonable to me in the same way that you'd have one laser on a vehicle map. Relying totally on a single laser or rocket is really tricky, since they're long spawning items and generally only have one per map. That often leaves up to 3 minutes where there's potentially no effective counter and vehicles have free reign.
guys, I wasn't saying that it's hard to kill ghosts with a plasma pistol or grenade. I'm saying that because they take so much bullet damage before showing any signes of blowing up, that you must have stickies and pp's to offer some kind of resistance to them. otherwise with 4 on each map, ghosts do nothing but run over those who are just trying to shoot each other. the shooting really should be the focus of a First Person SHOOTER, IMO. The ghosts can get so annoying that I am very happy I have a way to easily dispatch them. And taking down a Banshee with a plasma pistol isn't exactly EASY. It takes a skilled infantry or a very unskilled pilot to to get close enough to use the stickies and PP's... Again, it does now days take two rocket shots to destroy a Hog, so I'm not sure how people can say it's not vehicle friendly. the vehicles can't run amok and dominate the way they used to, and in my book that is a very good thing. [br][/br]Edited by merge: edit, to add that the best alternative would be that on BTB plalist you actually got two types to vote on... BTB, and BTB Heavy. not having tanks in the mix would be nice sometimes...
So, I'll mess around with a bunch of the default BTB maps and add weapons. If I make a custom lobby for this, I advise anyone else to make their own versions if mine aren't very balanced. Specifically, what maps do you want to see? I'll definitely do Ragnarok and Longbow, but does anyone want to see how Exile and Vortex will play? Should I bother with the Crimson BTB maps?
Alright. For Ragnarok, should I take the Mantis out from each base? With those gone, however, I can't think of much that would oppose the Banshee (aside from laser and warthogs). Also, should the power weapons be set to regular spawn or via ordnance drops? I have them on regular spawn right now. Other than that, I put all of the BRs in their original locations on Valhalla, replaced any spots where dual SMGs spawned with an AR, laser spawns every 180 seconds, put 90 second shotguns in their caves, replaced Brute Shots with Concussion Rifles.
Anyone have any advice for my Big Team Slayer Classic gametype? Basically trying to replicate Halo 3. I think the movement traits might be a little off. I don't have Halo 3 with me to test it until I get back home but here is what I got so far. The gravity set to 75% gives that classic Halo "floaty" feeling... but the jump might be a tad too high. I'd like to edit the damage and shield traits also if they need to be, but I haven't touched them... - Sprint: Disabled - Instant Respawn: Disabled (3 Second Timer?) - Friendly Fire: Enabled - Betrayal Booting: Enabled - Loadouts: Disabled - Deathcam: Disabled - Personal Ordnance: Disabled - Primary Weapon: Battle Rifle - Secondary Weapon: Magnum - Grenades: x2 Frag - Armor Abilities: Disabled - Tactical Package: Resupply - Support Upgrade: Ammo - Player Speed: 110% - Jump Height: 110% - Player Gravity: 75% - Fall Damage: 0%
I'm trying to make a Halo 3 style gametype that's all I'm concerned with at the moment. You know in the old days we had to walk across Valhalla in 90 degree weather. EDIT: Ok, I changed Player speed to 110% and it feels right until I can check Halo 3. I also lowered jump height to 100% and kept gravity on 75%.
Imo 100% jump height is not enough. 75% gravity makes it floaty enough, but jump height in Halo 3 was most certainly higher than Halo 4.
It feels higher with the gravity lower even at 100% but if it actually isn't ill put it back to 110%, which seemed either slightly too high or perfect, I couldn't really tell.
Yeah it's really tough to judge sometimes, especially since there aren't that many constant units of measurements to actually judge games side by side. I dunno what Valhalla is like for scaling to check, but I'm pretty sure the Mongoose is the same size as it was in Halo 3 so that might be a good measurement tool (like put them vertically on top of each other to make a crude ruler in forge, then do the same in Halo 3). Tsb knows more about the comparisons with 3 than me, he might be a good person to ask for consistent units of measurement, I agree it's tough just relying on judgement.
Good idea man! When I get back home in a couple weeks I will try to use the mongoose as a measuring tool. Who is Tsb? It's a damn shame that I can't get the old Red Vs Blue back... I took off the sprint and instant respawn, that is very easy to do. But, to change colors for each team they said it can only be done by modding .maps and traits or traitzones for the teams. That's not a very viable option as I wanted the gametype to be universal for any maps. I just wanted it to feel more classic and look better with a regular red color and a royal blue... I can't stand the new Red Vs Blue as the colors are so desaturated.
Tsb = thesilencebroken. And yeah I kinda agree about the colours. It's never bothered me too much, but it'd be nice if it was an easy fix.
Yea that was my point. Concusion and frags and soft counters to vehicles are perfectly fine for dealing with vehicles like ghosts and warthogs takes skill to use those weapons to take down vehicles(timing,angles etc) and takes skill to survive those weapons(been able to control your vehicle to not flip) and when it flips choosing do you go for vehicle or kill ejected players and for guys in vehicle do you use vehicle as cover and fight or get back in then fight or run and do you wait for your team to get in(if had warthog gunner) So many educated decisions and skill involved compared to PP and Plasma: Easy to time PP shot which shuts down vehicle, the driver can't do anything about, Plasma easier to time then frag but kills and flips vehicle driver can't do anything about it. Not to mention Flipping around from frags in a vehicle behind enemy lines is incredibly intense and fun. (Compared to been stunned or insta killed, That been said I think average of 1 PP on a map would be recommended but definitely not required in Halo 4's cramped BTB maps) Except everyone spawned with BS, And Vehicles can be neutral spawned and controlled with respawn timers which directly effect the respawn times and spawn locations (neutral or team) of anti vehicle weapons to create the balance. So the map creator can decide how strong or weak he wants the vehicles to be. If the creator wants a strong vehicle force (as in gameplay revolves around say warthogs then that's ok, Doesn't always have to be 50/50 with vehicle strength some maps can have 10/90 with 10% of people been on foot 10% of the time and 90% of people been in vehicles 90% of time and that's fine, I personally prefer 40infantry/60vehicle) I explained why soft counters to normal vehicles are fine, Power weapons are counters to power vehicles (tanks/mantis) if someone rushes a tank you rush a laser your team just got the advantage. If someone wastes a laser to quickly kill 4 people on foot then a tank spawns and you have 3 minutes of no easy counter to it(there is always weakening the hatch and 5shooting the driver if map designer didn't put any other counters in), I think you need to have a word with the reckless player. And assuming the map is balanced and that just happened to be the circumstance then your team deserves to be put on the back foot for 3 minutes.(not get spawned killed, but running from tank and been on defensive) In BTB slayer its not just about getting kills it's about controlling both teams to give your team longer periods where your team has better potential for kills, Not every team has equal chance at kills at any given moment in BTB the team with more Power weapons/vehicles will have more potential for kills.(Even if your a better team either though luck or they where more strategic they have a better chance at getting kills for this period of time) Your team has sniper more potential for kills after some time They get a tank and suppress your sniper they suddenly have more potential for kills during this period after some time Your team gets a laser your team gets more potential for kills. You should have periods of time where your have the advantage and disadvantage but there should always be an out for the disadvantage team like a way to get back in the game (power weapon locations, vehicles, Map layout, anything) Problem comes when all the outs are to easy to use or control making it impossible to hold an advantage for any period of time.
Ok, so here is my version of Longbow 2.0, tell me what you think. All of the power weapon spawns are based off of initial drops on the normal Longbow, and are found in the same place: Spartan Laser (the only exception is I moved it to bottom mid (the warthog tracks) because it spawns right next to rockets) Rockets: roof of the base at top mid 2x Snipers in their original spawn locations Sticky Det: added to the tunnel in the middle connecting the two bases (Alpha and Charlie) Railgun: warthog tracks in the back of the map I added the rest and scattered them around the map: 12 frags 14 BRs 4 carbines 1 light rifle 10 plasma grenades 4 plasma pistols 4 assault rifles 4 human turrets (in their original locations) All vehicles were left alone So Valhalla and Longbow are done, and left open to criticism. I'll work on Meltdown, but I don't even know where to begin with Exile: something NEEDS to be done about the Gauss Hog that blue team is given, handing them everything in 10 seconds.
I'm fine with 1 Plasma Pistol on the map for each team like Halo 3 had. I definitely agree Halo 4's BTB maps are cramped but it's Certain Affinity's style... they did that in Halo: Reach too I think. They just feel cramped compared to Bungie's Magick. But you definitely NEED to have one plasma pistol for each team as a "requirement". It's a simple anti-vehicle/shields handgun, it's not a power weapon. It's the only weapon that stops vehicles in their tracks with EMP... you have to have one for each team. Think about it, there is 16 people in the match... that means 2 people get the plasma pistol when the match starts. Most the time they will probably die before they even use it. In Halo 3 and Reach...the plasma pistols would usually spawn every 30 (?), 35, or sometimes even 45 seconds. I think it was mostly 35. I remember that checking weapon spawn times on maps.