Discussion of H4 Game Mechanics Thread

Ordinance is poop because waypoints.

Ordinance is also poop because ammunition for days.

Random Ordinance is poop because random.

#Static spawns '13

/aubz opinionz

 

I like the idea of using the Ordnance for power weapons and on-map spawns for other weapons. I just wish the Ordnance system as a whole was more customizable when placing them in Forge (changing ammo amounts, whether waypoints show up, changing gametype specifics, etc.).

 

Ordnance is poop.
Loadouts are poop.
Automatic weapons are not poop, which is why gameplay is poop.
The idea of boltshots is poop.

 

Let me just say that Halo 4 is awful to me because of mainly two things: Personal Ordnance and the DMR. Everything else I can somewhat live with, but those two things absolutely ruin the experience for me.

 

I like power weapons to have waypoints and "ammo weapons" to be placed normally on maps, but you cannot customize the number of magazines (not clips) in ordnance drops.

Random ordnance drops should actually be embraced because they favor originality.. This is because they are not completely random, but they are spontaneously chosen from a customized list. For example, a Shotgun in the middle of the map would increase movement to close quarters, but a Sniper Rifle would encourage movement to locations with larger LOS. This allows the map to commonly feel new instead of having a similar experience every time. If performed correctly, random ordnance is a very beneficial mechanic to avoid repetition.

 

Random ordnance can ONLY be decent if the drop is always in a neutral location. In Halo 4, most of the locations are not neutral, and they can benefit one team while they can screw over the other.

 

Getting hit in the face with a rock would bring originality in my life. Doesn't mean I want that. I don't see why repetition of environment is so bad as to avoid it with things which question balance like that. One could just as well argue that ever playing the same map twice is a hit against originality. Variation should come from the gameplay imo, not from the enviroment within a single map.

Bungie's love of randomness in weapon mechanics has been extrapolated out to the very process of gaining a weapon, and I wasn't a fan of fundamental randomness to begin with. I can't see myself being convinced otherwise.

 

Guys: this is a thread for DISCUSSION of game mechanics. Not another excuse to just vent your anti-Halo 4 sentiments. If you're looking for that thread, I can hotlink you to Halo 4 General Discussion.

No, it's not exactly off-topic to say "Ordnance is poop," but you're also adding nothing to the conversation and intentionally or not, you're looking for a fight. So... please don't. Instead, discuss why it's poop to you (and maybe leave out the word "poop").

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Back to topic: I have been surprised to find that I like repeating initial ordnance for power weapons because I'm a forger and customs player. I can see how it's annoying to MLG types and hyper-competitive players on their 800th game on somebody's The Pit remake; you want to snap up rockets because you know where they spawn and because you timed them, and not have to fight off the whole enemy team simply because a waypoint came up. But that's not my experience of Halo 90% of the time now. I play a fistful of completely new maps every week, and seldom play any of these maps more than 4-5 times total. For the purposes of our testing and just having fun in custom games in general, giving waypoints to players who aren't the map's author, to direct them to power weapons and key map locations, is actually a godsend.

I'm not at all into random ordnance - it's right there in the name, and thus I leave it off all my maps. I'm also not big on personal ordnance, for a number of reasons (more randomness, doesn't promote movement, often results in games where seemingly everyone has a power weapon, unpredictability is bad for competitive play, etc.), though I think some of them are fixable - not that 343i is showing signs of wanting to fix it. But initial ordnance, especially for your rockets/sniper-level weapons? Yes please.

 

I understand what you mean. If that is the issue, blame the map-not the gameplay mechanic.

It should not question balance if the forger is competent enough. Also, many things question balance that are commonly used. Asymmetry and good aesthetics could harm a map, but they do not when performed correctly.

While there is variation in gameplay, each player grows to have the same tendencies and goes to the same areas of interest.

You are exaggerating. By "random," it means randomly chosen out of a customizable list. It is not like any unfit weapon would find itself onto that list without manual action of the forger.

 

I actually agree in many cases. I'm not so in favour as to call it a godsend, but from a forger's perspective I can see what you mean. But as a player, I thought it was going to be worse than it is. Rarely do you have to fight off the whole team, and generally it's just me and one opponent fighting over it.

I do miss timing and knowledge actually being an advantage, and now it's generally a toss up as to whether I'm the closest player to the drop. General MM isn't nearly as competitive for obvious reasons, so whilst I do feel that it diminishes my experience somewhat since my knowledge of MM maps actually used to mean something in power weapon terms, it's not doing a significant amount of damage to overall balance and I can see the advantage of helping less knowledgable players out a little, even if it goes against my personal gameplay principles.

That said, I think they key word is "repeating." I totally agree on that front, and it's refreshing to have repeating power weapons again in any form. Up until the Majestic (excluding community maps which use it, though I'm also very thankful for them), I'm pretty sure Ragnarok's Sniper was the sole repeating power weapon in Halo 4 MM. I can only assume this was based on the idea of personal ordnance replacing mid game power weapons, and my distaste for personal ordnance in general should make it clear why I dislike this approach.

It's not the weapon selection randomness that irks me, it's the randomness of when the weapon drops, or even whether it drops at all. Properly balancing a map based on a power weapon (which are generally key to a map's balance in general) which could drop at any time, and might not drop at all, isn't as simple as you're making out. It demands that the role of power weapons in balancing a map be diminished since they can't be relied upon, which imo is a bad thing. It's certainly another option for forgers, and not one they're forced to use, but I don't think it's an empowering option in terms of enhancing a cohesive design and balance approach.

 

Not really, 343i just did a poor job of executing the mechanic and giving it the customization options that they should have for Forgers to take advantage of it.

Eh... I could go either way with this one. I like having the variety to be able to choose what primary weapons and equipment I want to play with at a given time, but for a more strictly 'competitive' environment I can see the points against it.

lolwhat? Automatic weapons finally being viable options has only helped things, imo. It's definitely made playing on smaller maps more enjoyable for me. Sorry, but it makes sense for an AR to be able to beat a DMR or BR at closer ranges, so I'm glad that the automatic weapons have finally been balanced little better against the precision weapons.

Agreed.

 

I hope what happened there, doesn't happen here But I don't think it will.
Anywho..
To me ordnance doesn't really change much, only several little things.

Random ordnance - This can be useful in some maps, since you can change the game everytime because the weapons will be different then the time before. And you can, of course, choose the weapons yourself. So to me, this is useful.

Initial ordnance - I don't care, it doesn't change much now, does it? Yeah.. The waypoints. But advanced players will already soon know the map and its weapons, this is just a help for newer players and beginners, so I guess its fair? I can see this being annoying for the people who have timing, and knowledge of the map.. It isn't really useful anymore.

Personal ordnance - Its not great.. I love to fight over Power Weapons, and get a rampage afterwards. I like the classic way, in custom games I would enjoy it more. I do not want to wait and sit, pop off some heads with the DMR, till I get a Random Binary, IC, Overshield, Damage boost etc..

Im glad that we can still forge normal weapons on COMPETITIVE maps, unfortunatly not on Flood maps. Wich just takes away a little from the experience to me.
So, ordnance isn't really a great add to the game. It is disapointing to me. I can live with it, just in Halo 4 for now... But I will gladly see it disappear in future content.

 

It's pretty ridiculous how you can turn the tide of the entire game from getting 10 assists and then rolling a dice and getting a randomized weapon. It completely kills off the idea of being rewarded for actually doing something worth rewarding through gaining map control, and replaces it by rewarding everyone, even those that are just picking their nose in the back. Ordnance drops just create this massive array of randomized situations.

They give players the option to spawn with practically whatever they want, completely screwing with the idea of rising to the top with the same set of tools. I don't think I, or a lot of people, can actually take the game seriously when everyone is running around with boltshots, ARs, and plasmas.

The gun that takes zero skill to use shouldn't be able to beat the guns that do (assuming those using precision weapons never miss a shot) at any range. As a person that enjoys a skill-shooter, you can see why I'd be mad that the guns that don't take skill are actually dangerous.

If you think that the fact that you've moved up close to an enemy takes skill, I want to see you justify the same logic with players spawning with shotguns; automatics are pretty much shotguns, except when you're blindly throwing your life at your enemy, shooting the gun that is practically impossible to miss with, you have to be praying to god that they react 1 second too late or are already hurt.

I've played several games of Majestic DLC and for every AR kill that I get, I laugh at why I didn't deserve to win. For every game where my ToD is the AR, a tiny tumor grows a bit bigger in my brain. I didn't mind the AR's effectiveness in Halo 3, where you could narrowly beat an AR charger if you stayed out of melee range.

 

As I said, poorly executed on the part of 343i. In terms of Personal Ordnance, there's nothing wrong with a little in-game reward for players for performing well in that game and/or helping their team (especially in a more casual gameplay environment). Should they be able to call in Incineration Cannons or Sniper Rifles on a whim? Probably not, but again that falls to poor execution of the mechanic on the part of 343i than the mechanic itself.

As far as Initial and Random Ordnance is concerned, those just need more customization options in Forge itself (the same way you can customize actual weapon placements and other objects and such), and it they would become very solid mechanics. Again, 343i just fell short in their implementation of them.

That's why I made the distinction between a competitive and a more casual style of game/player. For those looking for a strictly more competitive game where everyone should be starting with more-or-less the same weapons and equipment, then obviously the ability to choose whatever one wants for a starting loadout would want to be avoided. For those that just want to pick-up-and-play every once in a while, it's a nice thing to have.

Again, though, that's the fault of 343i for not providing enough appropriate playlists to suit the needs and wants of the community and it's players rather than with having Loadout options in and of itself.

Blah-blah, elitist rant, blah-blah, skill debate, blah-blah, tactics. I've made tons of arguments regarding this 'skill' stuff and for automatic weapons and whatnot, and I'm sure you've seen and argued them all yourself without anyone having their minds or way of thinking changed, so I'll pass on repeating all of that again here because it boils down to differing opinions on our respective parts.

All I'll say is that I've always enjoyed playing Halo with the AR and have always enjoyed the play-style that came with using it, so personally I'm glad to see that the AR can actually score kills every now and then now rather than be something that always had to be discarded at the first opportunity because literally everything else was better than it (despite how illogical that is).

 

I pretty much ditched the AR in favor of the Suppressor. Suppressor beats AR at anything slightly less than the effective range of the AR and with the huge spread you can take down multiple people pretty quickly. (I mostly play dominion now which involves a lot of 1vn battles at close range where the suppressor is incredibly effective)

Automatic weapons have gotten the reputation of low skill weapons because of spread, lack of headshots, and how easy they are to use decently. When used correctly it takes more skill to follow a target perfectly while firing instead of just pulling the trigger when you're reticle is on the enemy. The majority of players, however, are at a skill level where the precision weapons are significantly more effective than automatic weapons at anything but point-blank range.

 

Precisely. "Precision" and "automatic" aren't mutually exclusive. You can have precision auto weapons, and they're beautiful when done right. The Focus Rifle is a decent example, though definitely a power weapon rather than a utility weapon. The Lightning Gun from Quake is also a good example.

Halo doesn't do this. It uses auto weapons as mid to CQC range fillers, and mid level damage dealers with a lesser emphasis on accuracy.

 

If that's the issue then I would absolutely love it if they reduced the reticle size and bloom on the AR and other automatic weapons. How do we go about yelling at 343i loud enough to make this happen?