Balance=Good gameplay Unbalance=Bad gameplay You balance for the 1% of pros because Which benefits the 99%. which means better you get the better the gameplay gets. Means the better you get the worse the gameplay gets. Understand what I mean by? and the better the gameplay gets.
This is absolutely, 100% not the case. You really need to look outside of Halo before talking with such certainty. Pro Starcraft has been around nearly as long as the game, and in a highly organised form for over a decade. Quake, CS and other PC shooters have similar, longstanding professional scenes. Even if you look at consoles, the pro Fighter scene predates pro Halo. This is not new at all, and all of the above games do not have the division of "pro" and "casual" to the level that Halo does: ie. a totally different mindset on how to approach the game and how it should be balanced. There are just average players and very good players, the latter of which will compete in tournaments. Halo is the new kid on the block in terms of eSports. It's actually pretty looked down upon in most "true" eSports communities because of how much the game has to be bent to purpose compared to PC shooters (and also because of the inherent problems in a truly competitive shooter being restricted by a controller interface vs KB/M). Again, not true. Blizzard and Riot are very aware of what the competitive scene looks for in their games, and are very involved in the competitive scene. They are absolutely balanced with pro level gameplay in mind. To a degree, admittedly, and both companies are aware that they're developing for a wider audience than just pro players, but again there isn't this view of inherent division between the two, and it isn't seen as developing for two separate audiences because the games are designed with a high attention to detail in terms of balance. People who play the games at a "casual" level are content to do so, and don't feel the need for bells and whistles which compromise balance to tempt them in. Tweaking by the respective leagues is really minimal, basically things like custom maps to augment the selection in SC2. For one, this inherent divide isn't necessary at all, as illustrated by all the examples I referenced above. Second, whilst Halo does have this oddly strong divide of culture, development attitude most certainly does not sit in the centre. Somewhere between the two =/= in the centre.
A good example is the Banshee from Reach. A competant pilot could easily spawn trap and devastate a team of randoms, whereas two competitive teams could easily team shoot a Banshee down within seconds. Iirc it took like 40 DMR shots to take down a Banshee and between 8 players (BTB) that's quite easy to do. But again, it totally destroyed randoms in MM.* So much this. Halo has been tweaked HARD for competitive play ever since what... H2? The only thing they did in H2 for MLG gameplay was remove radar and make it BR starts (SMG was a terrible starting weapon anyway... But it's great for encouraging players to pick up weapons.) Fenix Hulk does have a point. Halo 4 was definitely designed for casual gameplay. I mean why else would this game be as random as it currently is? Anyone read that article stating how "CoD has ruined a generation of FPS?"* The president guy stated "one of the things that Call of Duty does, and it’s smart business, to a degree, is they compress the skill gap. And the way you compress the skill gap as a designer is you add a whole bunch of randomness. A whole bunch of weaponry that doesn’t require any skill to get kills...(Incineration Cannon, Binary Rifle)* Sounds like Halo 4 all over.* While I agree that games should be balanced to a competitive community before a casual community it's definitely not the case with H4. Hopefully the dwindling H4 population will make 343i and Microsoft realize that.
Nooch, the issue with the Reach Banshee was that "coordinated" and "BTB" are damn near mutually exclusive compared to other playlists and gameplay forms. It was in the wrong context for something powerful yet fragile, imo. There was also the issue that the power was achieved through a very modern Halo approach: ease of use in damage terms. The bomb didn't require too much precision to achieve the power, it did it through generous magnetism and a high blast radius, made worse by lower player speed in Reach. This is why the counter (vulnerability) had to be taken to such an extreme degree, with the thing essentially made out of paper. I feel that the H3 Banshee was a much better balance of skill required vs power, and thus it didn't matter that it was harder to kill (in that it focused more on specific counter requirements like Laser or Rocket Pod rather than being vulnerable to utility and anti infantry weapons). EDIT: As for Halo 2 only needing radar and primary changes to fit in to competitive play (and the same basically applies to CE, aside from the point I'm about to make), this is only true to a point. This doesn't account for the major divide inherent in the game even before we consider dedicated use for competitive play: the 4v4 vs 8v8 divide. MLG has always excluded vehicle maps, for obvious reasons. I can't really think of any other mainstream shooters that have this dualism even within the vanilla game. Shooters which include vehicle combat by and large include it across the board. You may get maps without it, but they're still generally on the same scale as those with them but just don't offer a vehicle friendly environment. Halo has this weird dualism of both arena and battlefield combat within one game. This was one thing that MLG had to address right from the start, with the obvious choice to straight up exclude the latter. I think this substantially contributed to the early divide between casual and competitive circles since the game has two fundamental approaches.
I get what you meant with the banshee just as a obvious example of how the better players get the more balanced the game should get. Banshee was still "slightly" OP in Reach but less OP in a coordinated team of 8 so point still stands. Keep in mind that MLG=Competitive but Competitive=/=MLG. I don't know why there isn't a league that Pro's can play the default gametype or a slightly tweaked balanced version(to remove anything that's OP or buffing anything UP, I would prefer that over MLG). Or why there isn't a balanced BTB league for Pro's to play (I personally would follow that hardcore) I dunno why MLG is the most popular competitive league and as everyone knows MLG is "stripped down" compared to default halo so idk why it caught on or maybe the default gametype is competitive and balanced at a pro level and MLG just got in first and monopolized Halos competitive scene idk. Whatever the case it doesn't make any other gametype uncompetitive because MLG exists. Halo has so many options with gametypes and forge you can make so many balanced competitive gametypes. Imo tweaking a gametype isn't that much of a bend since one biggest selling points of halo is its customizability(not like modding it or anything), So Esport community's may look down on MLG Halo but that's because they choose to bend the game to facilitate a certain skill set.(4shot BRing,etc,etc. They could of choose to make a MLG gametype that incorporated all skillsets of default Halo. Example:all skillsets involving a tank aren't in MLG)
William, there aren't vanilla leagues because the vanilla game isn't suitable for competitive play. You say that it should be a vanilla version with unbalanced elements removed. That's exactly what MLG gametypes are. I don't know what else you want. I gotta admit, I actually found it pretty surprising when you said that games should be balanced with competitive play in mind and then the rest will follow, considering how much you seem to like vanilla Reach. Reach was most certainly not balanced with competitive play as a priority, so whilst I agree with your view I was pretty surprised to hear it from you (hope you don't take that the wrong way, it's not an insult at all, just a different perspective than I expected from you). Halo 2 and CE had basically vanilla settings for MLG, just with BR starts in Halo 2 and vehicles play removed in both, basically confining it to the arena aspect of Halo. 3 saw a little more divergence with slight tweaks to movement and damage, and equipment removed. As more fundamentally uncompetitive mechanics were added in Reach, the deviation became more significant. There's bigteambattle.net for competitive BTB. These things exist, they're just not high profile or high stakes like MLG was. The reason that other eSports communities aren't keen on how Halo has panned out (perhaps "look down on" was too strong for an overall description, though it's certainly true for many circles) is precisely because of this division between MLG and casual that occurs in Halo. As I said, this division doesn't occur for games like Quake, CS or Starcraft, and as such their overall communities are MUCH more cohesive, and the competitive scene benefits from it since the talent pool isn't limited to those who want to "make the jump" in to MLG. The competitive game most certainly benefits from this unified model.
I don't believe that MLG is closest thing to a competitive version of vanilla Halo. If MLG is the way it is now except they add radar in that wouldn't make it any less competitive(may lower skill ceiling/gap or something) but it would be closer to a competitive vanilla Halo. But they choose to keep radar removed because it accommodates a certain skillset (MLG skillset like 4shotting BRs strafing twitch skills pentagon skills small map weapon/spawn/map control,etc) So there choosing to accommodate specific skill sets while removing others (crouching to hide from radar, not a huge skill but still a skill to knowing when slow movement and not on radar>moving at normal speed on radar) intentionally going against vanilla Halo. No vehicles=Huge amount of vehicle related skillsets.(all "battlefield" skills removed to facilitate the MLG skillset) MLG's goal isn't to make the most competitive balanced Vanilla Halo its to make the most balanced competitive gametype that the players with the best MLG skillset will win. Vanilla Reach may not have been competitive at pro level but I'm not a pro so I can still play it to best of my ability and to me be playing competitively versing people of my skill level. (and I really enjoyed the gameplay that the pseudobalance provided) It would of been amazing if was balanced at pro level but doesn't stop people enjoying it either way. But gotta balance for best of the best. I'm actually surprised you didn't think I would think balancing for competitive play is a priority. I believe in competitive gameplay I just don't enjoy MLG's take on competitive Halo gameplay (Not saying it's not competitive) I respect pro MLG players skills I just don't enjoy playing/watching or admire the specific skillset required to be good at MLG.(I don't mind playing every now and then just not much) But I do enjoy playing/watching and admire the skillset that requires you to be good at vanilla Halo specially BTB(even if it's not perfect at a pro level which I wish it was, and if someone in a position of power where to have that as a goal I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard because I would prefer vanilla gameplay/skillsets to be at the Pro level instead of MLG's skillsets/gameplay). If Halo 2 and CE had the gametype options and forge of Halo Reach I'm sure there would be more divergence in the MLG gametype of Halo 2 and CE as well. Just sayin' Which derives from MLG choosing to focus on the MLG gameplay/skillset over vanilla gameplay/skillsets. If there was a league that polished the vanilla gameplay to a balanced competitive level (instead of intentionally deviating to promote a certain playstlye) and if that league was more popular then MLG the "Looking down because of the competitive division" wouldn't be a issue. Not blaming MLG for this there doing what they wanna do but it is what it is.
Contradiction. Lowering the skill gap = making it less competitive. Including radar would absolutely hurt it. Like massively. I wish I could get Ladnil in here for this one. It's literally nothing to do with that. Removing radar emphasises team skill through communication, and awareness too. The BR strafe discussion is meaningless here. 4v4 vehicle play is very tricky, and I honestly don't think Halo is correctly balanced for it to be competitive. I thoroughly approve of BTB.net and their approach. But vehicles are simply not suited to 4v4 arena play, nor are the maps necessary to accommodate them. You make serious concessions to arena play simply in giving vehicles enough room to makeover, let alone actually work well. The gulf they create as single items is huge. Like I said, "vanilla" Halo almost means two completely separate things even without factoring in MLG. BTB on Sandtrap and Team BRs on Guardian are both "vanilla," yet are worlds apart. You need to actually clear up what you mean by these things. That would be all well and good if we were talking about tweaks, but Reach introduced fundamentally uncompetitive elements in a way Halo had never seen before. Again, to each their own, but I'm genuinely surprised to hear the pro balance thing from you. I don't really know how to approach this because your definitions of "competitive" and "vanilla" are very unclear. You talk about them like measurable metrics, or binary states, and also talk as if MLG has specifically taken a slice of "competitive" elements of Halo and outright ignored others. Like I said, the elimination of vehicles isn't simply specializing, it's identifying something that is fundamentally at odds with 4v4, highly skilled arena play. If you wanted to turn it in to a game of much more strategic focus then fair enough. The focus would then be on controlling these elements which don't balance themselves particularly well. This has issues, especially at 4v4 size, but it's an option to be sure. The problem is that Halo doesn't lend itself to this vein of play as well as other shooters, since the fundamental shooting and movement mechanics are so much more akin to arena play. Halo's vehicle and large scale approach is very much a halfway house. I'd be surprised to see it with CE. Custom maps, yes, but that's not the same thing as fundamentally altering mechanics. Weapons on maps would definitely have been changed in Halo 2 particularly. But I dunno about more fundamental things like movement speed, damage mods etc. CE defined itself, there was little else to shoot for in competitive terms, so what exactly would they have changed? The main issues with 2 were loss of the pistol, and huge hitbox/magnetism increases. Neither of these things are really addressable with gametypes even at the height of customisation.
Using motion trackers is basically trading a large skill gap (based on team communication and individual awareness of map routes and player spawn locations) for a small one (knowing when you're near enough to an enemy to need to crouch). Though I've grown accustomed to playing with trackers ever since Halo 3 and the domination of Live over LAN games, and once you lean on them hard enough for long enough, it's tough to go back.
It's funny b/c I play all games you mentioned. They actually have Monday Night Starcraft (or Sunday, can't remember) in South Korea and I've been to South Korea to even witness this first hand (had a tour there). Quake isn't nearly as close as Halo or Starcraft, Counter-Strike is no more. Halo, CoD, and Madden are the only ones really for the consoles. This is all new though for the console as it started with Halo, what I was originally saying. Edited
Again, Fighters have been going strong on consoles for a while now, before Halo. CS:GO has a tournament happening this year iirc. What do you mean by "Quake is nearly as close as Halo or Starcraft"? Like I said, Quake way predates pro Halo, and still has competitions. Halo is only notable because of how high it rose in terms of prize money and the NA scene, but it burned bright and short in the eSports world to be honest. Even then, I think that drawing such a definitive line between console and PC is flawed. The fact that things like LoL, DotA2 and SC are on PC doesn't negate all the points I made about how design with a specific focus on competitive play is perfectly viable.
I didn't mention which ones have tournaments, I mentioned which ones have "pro leagues". MLG... hint, hint. All games have tournaments but MLG didn't form until Halo days. I said nothing about tournaments, they have existed since the days of chess brother if you want to get that in depth. "Major League Gaming (MLG), founded in 2002[6] by Sundance DiGiovanni[7] and Mike Sepso,[8][9] is a North American professional Electronic sports organization, headquartered in New York City, New York. MLG has held official video game tournaments throughout the United States and Canada. Major League Gaming competitions have been broadcast on television,[9][10] ESPN.com,[11] and other broadband sites.[12] The company has also been involved in television production,[9] and game development.[13] MLG's aim is to elevate computer and console game tournaments to viable competitive and spectator events.[10] Major League Gaming acquired Agora Games on August 18, 2009.[13][14]" MLG includes Starcraft but not CS or Quake. Notice when it was founded, shortly after the release of Halo 1 and Halo was the very first game added. No other "competitions" can be considered "pro" when compared to the MLG in my opinion. (I love CS and Quake as much as anyone, but they're dead. The competition following gameplay that is the only community left for them is very very small).
You said "pro level." These tournaments have prize money. People earn money, the regularity of a season with events is a completely arbitrary line to draw. It's not like MLG players are salaried, or at least not in the sense of it happening because of MLG (I'm pretty sure salaried Koreans have attended MLG, though obviously this isn't a credit to MLG but to the eSports environment from which they came to MLG). They are no more "professional" than those who compete in standalone tournaments. So wait. You've been to Korea and seen Starcraft? You've seen how it's broadcast on goddamn TV? How strong the financial model for it is out side of prize money for a handful of players? And you think MLG is the only competition worth considering pro? Valve held a DotA 2 tournament with a $1 million first prize. Yes that was an excessive example, but it still happened. Halo is chump change compared to that. MLG Halo is notable because it A) championed a console shooter in an eSports world previously dominated by PC titles, and B) grew big enough for decent production value and $100K first prize for one tournament a year, the rest being a fifth of that. Like I said, it burned bright but quickly, and even then it was far from the biggest example. It's doing better since it stopped relying on Halo simply because the eSports world in to which it moved by picking up SC2 first, and then LoL, simply dominates in the Halo eSports community in both size (like, to an insane degree) and unification of attitude towards the game.
So wait. You've been to Korea and seen Starcraft? You've seen how it's broadcast on goddamn TV? How strong the financial model for it is out side of prize money for a handful of players? I don't know if you are being insanely aggressive towards me or surprised by this fact but yes to all of the above. Starcarft is a National Sport in South Korea and is like Football to the US. They have one night a week where it is televised. I have served 8 years in the army BTW, and served a tour in South Korea and met many South Koreans. Me being a big fan of Starcraft would shortly find these facts out being in there country. They would show me footage on their phones of the actual broadcast. Moving on... I never said anything about tournaments, lol. I never said anything about the money involved or that Halo was more popular than Starcraft. You're completely blowing smoke here and missing the point. MLG was the first move to push towards making a league of professional gamers and it started with Halo. Yeah, there has been competitions out there (pretty random) that have some pretty big prizes. MLG is the first to actually develop a league for "Pro." Yeah they don't get paid salaries but I see that changing in the future. -------------------- Edit: You use the term "pro" very loosely. Let's clear it up. pro 2 [proh] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural pros. Informal. adjective 1. professional. noun 2. professional. 3. the pros, the professional athletic leagues, as of football, baseball, or basketball: He's sure to be signed by the pros.
I should of said "Make it not a competitive gametype" Removing radar removes any radar related skills. Maybe no radar emphasizes team communication and awareness, But at the cost of removing Radar related skills meaning less like Vanilla Halo ( which might be worth the trade off not the point) My goal wasn't to discuss the pros and cons of radar and vehicles and strafing or anything in particular. Just that removing Features of vanilla Halo makes it more MLG at the cost of deviating from vanilla Halo. The binary states I use to define vanilla and MLG are the way the game plays aka gameplay and the skills that are needed to be good at the gametype Competitive MLG plays nothing like AR slayer.(Meaning it uses different skills to be good at) If AR slayer settings where tweaked to be balanced at a Pro competitive level that still played like AR slayer(meaning it uses same skills at a pro level and at a average level) That would be Which MLG isn't a vanilla version with unbalanced elements removed because MLG plays differently meaning requires a different skillset. All halo gametypes are technically different versions of same game but biggest difference between the gametypes are the way they play and the skillsets they require to be good at, (stemmed from the technical differences) I do, Because vanilla Halo has more strategic focus then MLG which has more of a focus on twitch skills Tbh I wish the AA's where balanced in Reach but honestly they would have to be pickups or excluded to balance the game at a pro level. But removing AA's wouldn't change the required skillset to be good at the gametype. (which yes is a deviation from vanilla gametype, and deviations are required to balance because deviation=change, The problem arises when you change so much the gameplay changes and the skillset required to be good at the playlist changed. I would take MLG as a competitive stripped down 4v4 DMR slayer(using similar skillsets and gameplay). Which is fair enough. But I already see DMR slayer is a variant of the most vanilla gametype slayer with AR/Pistol starts which I would prefer a balanced competitive pro level gametype of(which uses same skillsets and gameplay), and MUCH much much much rather a balanced competitive pro level version of BTB(which start with DMR in vanilla). Hopefully that explains why I don't think MLG(A competitive version of a certain variant of Slayer) should be the Be all and end all of competitive Halo.
My point about Korea was that it's exactly that: a national sport. Their leagues put MLG to shame in every sense, in terms of skill level, money and cultural significance, so how is MLG the only competition worth considering pro? That's what I don't understand about your stance. I use the term pro to mean professional player, I don't see how that's loose. A professional is someone who earns money for doing something. You'd have been better off citing the term "professional" on that site since it actually goes in to details and is what "pro" is short for, specifically: 11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional. You keep talking about a "league" as if that's some defining factor in being pro. The only reason that "leagues" in professional sports denote a professional over an amateur (since someone who competes in random basketball tournaments, even for money) is, in simple terms, that the players are basically employees. They're salaried. The teams exist as entities other than simply that composed by the players themselves. If you want to define "pro" more specifically than simply earning money playing the game in any form, then surely this must be it. This is no more true of MLG pros than it is of people who play in these standalone tournaments. The "League" within MLG is, in this sense, a name only. Players are not salaried, so the distinction of MLG being a "league" is basically meaningless, yet it seems your entire distinction rests upon this. Even then, this conversation was started by WWWilliam saying that games should be balanced with pro level play in mind. How has your very specific (and, imo at least, completely arbitrary) definition of pro become the basis by which we hold that discussion?
Getting really lost in this argument. Why would you say that "pro-level gameplay" started with MLG Halo and is brand new, but then pull a 180 and back yourself up later by saying that Koreans have been playing Starcraft like they're glorified football players, pushing to become competitive gods for the longest time? Also, Pegasi keeps throwing facts at you, such as income that the events rake in, and you just reciprocate with personal experiences; that's not a very good way to argue. Also: Is that why Halo has gotten far less popular as it has gotten more casual?
Yes, Starcraft is a national sport in South Korea as they really don't have anything else going for them (sports wise, South Koreans are not very athletic in general). How do their leagues put MLG to shame besides your personal opinion? Skill Level is the same as MLG becuase the same Koreans compete on MLG... duh. Money, No. "Professional StarCraft players in South Korea can make a living off it, yes. You have to be aware that these players live in paid team flats with their team mates and most of their expenses are covered. The actual payments they receive are often quite low, only the top pro-gamers really become somewhat wealthy – for instance, NaDa and BoxeR both used to earn about 200 000 US-$ a year at one point. Most active Korean pro-gamers are somewhere around the average income or even lower. They live off the hope to become a champion one day." -Lari Syrota, eSports Professional StarCraft enabled the world’s first pro gaming league to happen in Korea – Korea Pro Gaming League (KPGL), established in 1998. (However, this league no longer exists.) And I was actually referring to console gaming, Halo in particular, and professional gaming across the board. Not many people knew or still know about this in our society today, but many know about MLG. MLG is what made Pro Gaming popluar b/c it is the standard for all popular games. I meant it this way in the quote by myself previously: "I don't agree with at all here, but "pro level" is still something new to the gaming community. This didn't even start until after the first halo came out and even then it was rarely heard of. Before that it was just playing video games and to say you were a "pro" would of just got a laugh from whoever." And you replied with: "This is absolutely, 100% not the case." So yeah, Korea started it but no one knew it about it. To go and tell someone you were a pro video gamer or wanted to be a pro video gamer 10 years ago would of got you laughed at by pretty much anyone I know of. Cultural Significance... Yes because it is a national sport. That doesn't put MLG to shame though. :S (MLG is worldwide with starcraft, South Korea is just South Korea). I think MLG actually puts them to shame in all corners you mentioned. "Major League Gaming (MLG) (www.majorleaguegaming.com) is the world’s largest eSports organization with millions of LIVE viewers, fans and competitors around the globe. MLG enables gamers to compete, improve their skills, and socialize via the largest online destination for competitive console and PC gaming featuring more than 8 million registered gamers, and the annual MLG Pro Circuit featuring LIVE, in-person tournaments in cities nationwide. MLG broadcasts competitive play, analysis and more via online streaming to hundreds of thousands of fans in an average of more than 170 countries" ---------------------- The league is what defines the Pro. Anyone can participate in a tournament/competition and that doesn't make them a pro. It is simply a one time thing where competitors are eliminated until the last man/team, which is considered the winner or is who ever has the most points in the end (like the recent online Halo 4 tourney). Leaques are annually held seasons and/or playoffs where teams are ranked, stats are tracked and the environment is a lot more competitive because every year teams compete to be ranked #1. Anyone can compete in a tournament but with a league you compete annually and across a large spectrum of locations. In a tournament, nothing is really tracked and you may have been the second best team but eliminated in the first round by the #1 team and no one would know. There's no way to determine who's pro and who's not. Pro's are considered pros due to their ranking, not because of what their salary is... if nothing at all. Everything in the world has tournaments. Leaques, my friend, determine the Pro. ------------- A person doesn't need to make a salary to be considered "Pro," obviously this was number 11 in the long list of loosely used ways of the word. My description is #1 on the list. --------------- Wrong again. Salaries don't determine jack. The league does. Obviously sponsors use the league rankings to determine there best "pick" to sponsor. They may also see someone outside a league that displays great talent and sponsor them to compete in the league. But salary doesn't determine a pro. ---------------- Leagues vs Tournaments, there is a huge difference. Professional Sports existed before there were salaries and they were still leagues for these sports. The pro were determined by players inside the pro leagues. To get into the league you had to prove that your skill level could match that of the pros. ------------------- It's not a name only! League is the most detailed word in MLG. It's a league, players compete annually, stats are tracked, teams are ranked, playoffs are held. It's not just a name and it's not just a bunch or random tournaments held with cash prizes. --------------------------- I used the word pro very passively beforehand but you had to take it to this level, and it's only b/c you didn't want to admit that I was right in the way I used it. -------------------------------- MLG was the first push to actual start a league. A above-all league that ranked all the top players of all the top games. I didn't pull a 180, MLG is over Koreans National Sport because MLG is world wide while South Korea is South Korea only. Plus MLG holds many other games than Starcraft. "Competitive Gods?" ..really, lol. Pegasi keeps throwing what facts at me? I've yet to see one. I'm the only one actually using facts here. Pegasi is the one that took something I said so literally and brought it to this level. ___________________________________________ You can argue all you want about tournaments and competitions and how you're a pro if you participated in one or the only Pros are the one's who won. That's so false. A Pro is determined by skill and talent, that is baptised over and over again in a professional league (MLG) where your every move is recorded and tracked. You're ranked and you sit very honestly on where you rank. Tournaments, can't even come close to achieving this as that is not their intention.
I was explaining why MLG shouldn't be the only viable competitive gametype for Halo. Then i got lost in the MLG vs starcraft argument you can argue all day about what is pro and how pro MLG or starcraft is. Professional technically is: Of, relating to, or connected with a paid A way of spending time, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification. (Laymens terms getting paid to do something) Or if you mean pro meaning "Skilled": Having or showing the knowledge, ability, or training to perform a certain activity well. (meaning pros are more skilled then rest of us at the game, And people who are most skilled are generally the ones who get paid to play it.) I don't care to put it bluntly MLG are the most skilled and get paid most in the Halo competitive scene, Starcraft has people get paid and are skilled to (idc who is more paid or more skilled or who was first) Point is whatever the game you should balance for the pros/skilled players (to benefits all players) And that MLG isn't the only competitive gametype Halo can have but just the one that got popular and monopolized Halo.