Yes they can. All the player does is need to learn the weapons spawn time by simply going into the map through forge. Once the spawn time is known, all you do is have to watch the timer on the game. If the weapon has a 60 second respawn and the weapon was picked up a 15 mins left, obviously it will respawn @ 14 mins. The same goes for drops. If you don't like random drops, use initial drops. Only difference is that it shows everyone where the weapon is at. Knowing weapon spawn times does not take skill, it takes knowledge. Having the weapon drop display for everyone does not increase or decrease the skill gap. However, hiding the weapons location and knowing the hidden spawn time gives the more experienced player an edge. He does not have more skill, he just has better knowledge of the map. Having the drops balances out so someone does not have that edge, so the game is balanced. Whoever wins is based on skill alone, not knowledge.
Just so you know, I'm not talking about INITIAL DROPS being unfair only RANDOM DROPS. I've made no mention of initials being unfair. I believe we have a failure to communicate here. I never said that the waypoint display lowers the skill gap. I've said that the weapons respawning at random times and locations lowers the skill gap. Also, knowledge is half of what skill is though. All skill is is knowledge on a technique, and the physical ability to execute it. Knowledge absolutely SHOULD give a player an advantage. By saying that nobody should have an advantage due to knowledge is like saying that every weapons should do the exact same damage because the new player doesn't know that a particular weapon is stronger. Knowledge is one of the biggest factors that separates a skilled player from a non skilled on. And players should always be rewarded for using skill.
I'm not going to start a flame war here with you so this will be my last comment in this thread. The reason I brought up Initial ordinance is b/c you seemed to come off as old school weapon spawning is the only way to go. I disagree and either way, Halo 4 uses ordinance, if you want a map to make it into the game, you got to go with the flow or you'll get a mass amount of players complaining about it. As far as skill and knowledge. Everyone should have the knowledge, but what seperates players is the ability to execute using the knowledge, which is skill. Everyone knows a rocket launcher is going to be more powerful than a Assault Rifle. However, taking days back all the way to Halo CE, and if you played online LAN games through the computer like myself, you remember all the top players knowing the weapon & power up respawn times. They even had clocks for each map you could download and use. You grab the active camo then hit the clock to start counting down to respawn time. If both teams are doing the same thing, (same knowledge) it was skill that seperated them (the ability to execute better). A player could be just as skilled as you and be able to perform just as well as you but without the knowledge, you're only beating him b/c of that and not skill. Skill is how well you can execute a task (not just physically). Having the icons up evens up that knowledge and gets everyone on the same page while leaving skill to seprerate winners from losers. I love the new way of incorporating weapons spawning on the map. You disagree... either way that's how the official maps are run and that's how Halo 4 plays. It makes you focus more on the fundamentals of the game, and that's your BR/DMR skills and communication over knowing weapon spawn times and locations that will give you a 3-5 kill lead each time.
While this may be the primary reason or a secondary reason, I do not know. Do you have a cite from 343i or CertainAffinity as to explaining their motivations on this design decision? If not, I would think their primary reason is to eliminate any intention of trying to control specific locations on the map, giving the less skilled more equal access to the weapons when they drop. Edited by merge: ^this ^ this ^ this Edited by merge: unfair? really? I think you got the word skill and fair mixed up. It would be unfair if the game allowed someone to cheat. The game was DESIGNED to be random. The game was DESIGNED to yield less reward to skilled players. There is NOTHING unfair about the design of the game. It is just different with different goals in mind than previous titles.
No need for a flame war, just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't have a rational discussion. Please feel free to continue, there's no reason we can't express our side instead of fearing the other person will get pissed. This isn't the waypoint forums after all. As far as the initial ordnance goes, sorry if I came off like that, that's not what I meant. I completely realize that initial ordnance is the same as oldschool (static) spawns, and I even mentioned that I use them on my maps as well, so I definitely see their value. As I stated though, the inability to control spare clips with them, and the fact that if you put every weapon in one the HUD becomes really cluttered is why I am looking for a better way. It has nothing to do with skill or anything of the sort, simply the lack of spare clips and HUD clutter. You described the CE days, where teams would use weapons timers. My point is this: That kind of system where players can do that is a good thing. It adds an extra level of though and strategy into the gameplay - something that has always set games like Halo apart from the constant kill-chasing style of games like CoD. Random ordnances take this system out of the game and replaces it with a game of chance. You say this is a good thing as it balances out the team with less knowledge with the team with more knowledge. Are you saying that players who have spent a long time playing this game and learning the intricate working of it's engine should not have this sort of advantage? Should we also remove strategic jump points from maps since new players won't know they're there? Of course not. These things all add level of thought to the game that serves to increase the skill gap and make the player who can process more information play better - system that is completely balanced. You say the random system makes you focus more on the fundamentals. I disagree. That level of focus is still there even with timed weapons, and as I stated before even helps boost the need for focus on teamwork and communication, as well as map flow. When you know that weapon will be spawning, the teams must make a concentrated effort to push into that territory. Without decent teamwork, communication, and skill this push will not be successful. Random drops just lead to people being rewarded with weapons for being at the right place at the right time completely by chance, how is that more balanced and skill oriented? As far as the "That's the way matchmaking is, that's the way you should do it" rationale, that is a bad idea. You should not try to imitate the majority simply to make it uniformed. As map designers we should focus on giving the best experience possible, and matchmaking's current setup is not that. Fair, balanced, skill-oriented; Take your pick. We both have better things to do than argue semantics all day.
I agree with the above...Initial Ordnance is great, Random is bad because a game should have strategy and skill -- not luck/chance, Personal is okay in some instances...depends on the map.
i stand by my methodology of showing people where the high powered weapons are using the initial spawns so they are on the HUD. weapons that are painfully obvious to find and littered all over the map, don't need Initial Spawns and HUD. Usually, when I design a map, I want someone to have to go to a particular place to get a sniper rifle. I want them to have to risk getting there by traversing something tricky. I also think about whether I want the ability to have two of the weapon on the map, such as allowing someone to pick up a 2nd sniper to challenge the guy with the first one. also, setting up a trap for the person going to that sniper spot is always satisfying to detonate at just the right time (Morpheus has this type of trap for the sniper) each forger can have his/her own style in this regard.
I think you guys are missing an issue with all Ordnance spawns. Or rather, two. One is overshield camping. The other is losing a reward for picking up a major power weapon undetected. That is, when you pick up an ordnance weapon, the indicator disappears. Bang, the other team can know about that Rocket spawn even when they didn't bother to set up or even look at the Rocket spawn area itself. Optimal choice would be drop spawning, but the weapon would disappear after 12 seconds. Useless and ridiculous. Power weapons have pretty much no place with dynamic ordnance, unless you want consistency that badly. Static ordnance has positives as well, but sadly you can't time more than two weapons using it. Dynamic ordnance is OK for weaker weapons that aren't huge control points and therefore wouldn't be things you'd set up around. In those cases, they can act as reasons NOT to pick up a weaker weapon when it would otherwise be too powerful.
Yes, you are correct. Skill, which does include strategy and coordination, is something that should be rewarded. However, take a look at the game from the perspective of 343i. They want the greatest following possible. they know that a large segment of the MM population is not a coordinated team, but randoms. They know that to make the game more interesting for as many people as possible (so as to attract the largest crowds and thus the greatest revenue) is to make the game more appealing to randoms. That is simply the bottom line. To do this, they have to make random drops so that a well coordinated team cannot lock down the area of the map that power weapons will spawn at, since there is no such location any longer. That is the obvious strategy. Now it is entirely debatable as to whether this tactic is responsible for any decline in the revenues that 343i sees or if any such decline is due to other issues. But that is not something any of us really have a legitimate clue about and therefore our "speculation" would be nothing but. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I would say that you can build your map any way you wish, I certainly would not judge you for it. I would say that if you ever want your map to find its way into the playlist, you will almost certainly need to do as the playlist.
At the very least, there's something to be said about having a consistent experience, and a similarity to MM is a pretty reliable way to accomplish that. There's nothing I hate more than having to play a completely different style of game every other match. It's not as obvious, but if you compare it to changing physics settings my point is pretty clear. Jumping from all default to 200% movement, 50% jump, and 75% gravity is very disorienting. I consider that initial impression very important, so I focus on keeping the experience as 'normal' as possible. I figure if people didn't want to play Halo 4, they probably wouldn't be playing Halo 4, so they probably want more Halo 4, so that's what I'll give them.
I first decide what weapons will be on the map and where they will be. Then how they appear is based on what type of weapon it is. Power-ups are always initial spawns that drops again on a timer. Power weapons can either be initial drops or random ordnance. If it is a key power weapon maybe have it as initial with a re-drop timer. Grenades are always random drops. Then all the starting weapons are placed on the map as pickups when reasonable. I also think AA's can be placed on the map as a halfbreed between power weapon and starting weapon. Like if you build a space station on Impact and have one section that has a large gap you could put a Jetpack nearby incase it's needed.
IDK about adding AA's to a map. I'm sort of torn because I wanted a camo on a map but don't like that someone can keep using it over and over. we should have the option to use the old style powerups. they gave us an overshield, why not camo?