Weapon spawning standard.

I've been using initial ordnance (non-respawning) for initial power weapon drops, random ordnance for grenades and load-out weapon refills, and leaving later game PWs to PODS.

I've been avoiding using power-ups and AAs as map ordnance because it conflicts with the way ordnance is used in MM.

On the other hand, I'm conflicting with MM by using low powered weapons in my random drops instead of setting them as sandbox slot machines.

I think that's a reasonable compromise, and my maps still play very similarly to MM maps with the default gametypes. A little less chaotic, perhaps, but that's just me forging to my own taste.

I'm hoping the forge playlists set down some more predictable standards as far as this goes. While I expect they'll want to run default gametypes, I can't see the 4v4 variant of Infinity Slayer's personal ordnance working for 2v2.

 

The standard is exactly how official maps are set up. You have your initial drops that support early gameplay and help counter the early rush of vehicles. After that you can have anti-vehicle weapons respawn/random drop evenly with the vehicles and/or weapons that support gameplay. No one is going to stay to this standard though b/c many still like the old school way of weapons placed on map.

There should be no armor abilities, power ups, or weapons that you can spawn with be on the map. That's how it is in the official maps. But people are allowed to be creative and do w/e they want and create as many versions as they want... and will probably never read this post to even know there is a guideline.

 

People are gonna do what people are gonna do. Unless you have a top-down power structure like MLG with a particular model and set of rules in place, you can't dictate to an entire community how they should set up their maps. In fact, I daresay the main reason a lot of people here are into map-making and customs is so they can play Halo exactly the way they want, whether that means classic style (weapons on map only), new style (all ordnance and no weapons on map), or a chaotic blend of the two. And for a lot of people those choices probably aren't arbitrary; they may strongly prefer things the way they're doing them.

Personally I have done what I usually do with new Halo games - go with the flow. There are things I really preferred about the classic Halo style with weapons on map (and power-ups... boy, I miss the old OS and camo pick-ups). But my new maps have initial ordnance, maybe a little random ordnance for flavor, and few or no weapons on map. I put two plasma pistols on my first H4 map because I felt they were needed as an emergency offset against the vehicles, but didn't want ordnance indicators onscreen for them, cluttering things up; I just put them in easy-to-find places. With the two maps I've made since then, it's all ordnance.

 

I was just about to post something about this and then saw your thread. I think this is an important topic that for some reason hasn't been given much consideration.

If you have all your weapons and grenades down via ordinance you can have like ten ordinance markers on screen at once and it is really distracting. Personally I prefer the strategy you guys mentioned where major power weapons are deployed via initial drops. However, a major exception which complicates this method is with certain power weapons such as the rocket launcher. I can't in my right mind use the rocket launcher via ordinance since it spawns with too much ammo. However, I wish I could since I want the marker, and it definitely sucks when you have something like a scattershot map marker in one room and then in a nearby room a rocket is placed manually without any marker. In absence of knowing the map, players will run to the marked weapons thinking they must be the only power weapons. This is a decent and seemingly unavoidable disadvantage to first time players of the map.

On another note I am pleased to see that they fixed the floating weapons glitch from Reach so you can now place fixed weapons on walls etc. With this option I am tempted to make a map without ordinances and let people fend for themselves and find their weapons themselves like in the old days.



EDIT: I agree that standards would be unlikely to be enforced, but the question of how to go about the weapon placements in the most sensible way is still a good question. Just because people are gonna do there own thing doesn't mean we should try to plan our some conventions to make weapon placement more predictable for certain map types.

 

Instead of enforced standards for forging, it would be a lot easier to have enforced standards for posting. Either by detailing map ordnance or by standardizing a few different ordnance styles into distinct gametypes. At least then players downloading maps would know what to expect.

 

Like Hulk point out, the standard we should follow is the playlist. What they share in common is what your map should share in common with them. Where they differ is where you have room to differ. How they differ should give you an idea how much and in what ways your map can differ. Note for example where some of the random drops are located and ask yourself, "why there?" and that should help guide you to deciding the same for your map.

 

For this reason I just don't put many weapons on maps any more. In its intended form Halo 4 is about loadouts and ordnance of the various types, so I've been trying to roll with that. Most of my maps so far have maybe 5-6 random and initial drops combined - usually a couple for 'nades and 3-4 power weapons. Except those plasma pistols I mentioned, I haven't been putting regular weapons on maps.

This has basically forced me to rethink which weapons I want to put on maps. If the possibility of a certain weapon plus the ammo perk will overwhelm the map, I just don't put it on there as initial or random ordnance. I've been focusing my power weapon distribution mostly on weapons that are the second tier: the railgun, sticky det, SAW, needler, human sniper on mid-sized maps only, and all the CQC weapons (not as powerful as they used to be due to the boltshot). Things like rockets, binary, and incin cannon - proceed with extreme caution.

Oh I quite agree, it's well worth discussing. I just don't think the proposed notion of trying to create a standard (or set of standards) for everyone to try to follow will work. They'll simply do what they want, if they don't like the standards. People can already see what 343 has offered as a new standard and are choosing to do something else, either hearkening back to an old Halo method, or offering up a new hybrid approach.

 

I basically do what you do Dolan... power weapons & power-ups end up as initial spawns so that if they are hard to reach noobies to the map will not be at a huge disadvantage compared to those who know where to find them.

normal weapons end up mostly as static spawns, old-school style.

and my mostly, I mean I don't always follow this format. but perhaps I should...

 

I try to create a classic experience using the new system. I use intials as power weapons, and places the rest as static. It might not please everyone, but oh well.

 

Ah, the good old days of "Use MM gametypes for best experience."

Personally I refuse to use random drops and normal personal ordnance settings, as both seem really imbalanced to me. Standards are a thing of the past unfortunately.

 

Oh, and I always turn off personal ordnance in customs. I prefer to use classic BR/AR starts as well, but occasionally loadouts can be fun to mix it up.

 

is there a way to disable personal ordinances for a particular map? i've used trait zones to enforce different gameplay rules on maps rather than having someone need to create a custom game-type to increase player speed or jump height, for example. would be nice if we could do something similar for loadouts.

 

Nope. Maps don't have any control over load-outs or PODS. Best you can do it pair your maps with custom gametypes.

(Anybody figure out a way to change the map loadouts? IE the alternatives to your personal ones that show up at the bottom of the loadout list. Not that that would disable personal loadouts or anything, but it would be a modicum of control)

 

I personally make power-ups and power weapons static initial drops in places where I feel they would be placed in Reach or 3. Other weapons I place on the map (or if both sides have the same power weapon such as both bases having a shotgun or sniper)

I never place Random Ordnance and I'll only place Objective Ordnance for Dominion gametypes but even then I might not.

For example, my map that's similar to Guardian/Lockout/Ascension has a Railgun, Speed Boost, Overshield, Sniper, Needler, Shotty, and Sword as Initial Ordnance. The rest of the weapons are all placed on the map though I may make the Needler not Ordnance even though it's a lot more powerful this game.

Basically, I think: IO for power weapons in the middle of a symmetrical map or wherever for Asymmetrical, placed on map directly for everything else, no RO. PO should be acceptable and hopefully not break a map too badly but should be discouraged for maps of a more classic type such as remakes or maps inspired by classic maps.

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This is kind of OT but for gametypes...

Anyone know what the settings for classic Halo 3 would be? No ordnance of any kind obviously, AR/BR and Magnum start, no AA, etc. Unfortunately nothing can be done about sprint, but what would the player speed/jump height/etc. be? Should we have a thread devoted to explaining that stuff? I tried to remake a more classic CTF experience by making the flag carrier slower at 90% speed but I want it to move at the same pace as close as possible so like...should everyone move at 90 and the flag carrier even slower? On top of that, I tired to make the flag carrier's magnum worthless which I can do but it also means they can't melee anyone (Damage Modify is set to 0, Melee is set to 300 but melees still don't work but assassinations do)

Anyway...a thread for that might be good. Idk.

 

that is a good point... when you want to have rockets, but only 2 or 4 shots in it so no one can hang on to it for very long and get half a dozen kills with a cheap weapon, you have no choice but to use static spawning weapons.

I think if weapons are easily found they do not need the indicator on the HUD, IMO.

if placing a weapon makes it difficult to see as you walk past it, consider putting in a different location or finding a way to make it more visible, OR use initial drops...

 

That's exactly why they were invented is for random gameplay, to make each time you play a little different than having the same old weapon spawn there everytime.

Saying it is inbalanced is saying you are poorly educated on this. An ordinance drop and old school weapon placement are the exact same, the only thing that changes is the visuals of the weapon spawning and an icon that pops up revealing the weapons/items location. That's it. How is that imbalanced?

With Initial ordinance you can control weapons/item types, locations and respawn times. Everything the same as before and on top of that it has a awesome spawning visual as if it was orbit dropped in, it displays a icon on it (balancing it out so someone new to the map knows it's location) and doesn't cost a dime!

Or you could use random drops which can actually be controlled to not be random. You can select just one item out of the list and it'll drop that same item everytime. The only thing you can't control is the set spawn times.

How is that a problem and how is that imbalnced?

 

Well, nothing can be done about sprint that can be discussed openly here...

As far as using static weapons in place of ordnance, if it's only one or two, like an RL with a limited number of clips, what about doing something kinda like how we've been setting up 1-flag? Just stick an initial drop of that weapon behind a wall or floor immediately adjacent to the static spawn. The waypoint won't go away, but it would actually be pretty useful for call-outs and it would still serve to direct players to the weapon spawn, just without giving them information on whether or not it's actually there.

You even have some control over that, in that you can set the max/min times in gametype settings. Or were you just referring to the map level of control?