Correct. That was something I wanted to change with my map to differentiate from the other Invasion offerings and spice up the match's gameplay - short distance to 1st territory, long distance to 2nd, and medium distance to 3rd. Not everybody will like it, but I feel it's unique while still being fun. Yes, I understand - and was still speaking in terms of movement. Yes, Spire's 2nd Phase territories are still farther away then mine, but not that much - and that's only if you're on the ring walkway. What about Elites who camp on the roof, who can fire into both territories from above? No, you are definitely right. Except for grenades, direct line of sight/fire between the two territories is blocked. Players in the Antennae territory cannot fire into the Beach territory without leaving the capture zone, and vice versa. Same for the 2nd Phase territories. Unfortunately, distance was a sacrifice made in favor of story/theme, layout, and aesthetics. Additionally, I had to work with the game's geometry that I was given. If I had a full level editor, I would have carved a larger space into the rock wall to separate them more. True, it's definitely a blast. But I've also been the other team, the one who can't seem to break a camping/well-set-up defense that has the high-ground - and can hide in every nook and cranny. No, I definitely kept that in mind. I still don't think the Sniper is too overpowering, especially if a sneaky Elite assassin takes out the Sniper early or his position is overrun with Repeater-wielding warriors - both of which aren't that uncommon. Something I tried to do with my spawns was induce a bit of risk, as well as a tactical choice. You could spawn at your fireteam spawn, (as you noted) encouraging a certain course of action, generally near an objective or closer to the frontlines - or they could spawn at a safer backfield position, generally near vehicles/weapons. That way, the player is never restricted to a single course of action - but they do pay a trade-off for making that choice. Additionally, I tried to place my spawns in somewhat more neutral areas, so that players didn't have to commit to defending a certain objective because "they spawned closest" (like in Spire) but could if they wanted to. I see. I still wish the vehicles weren't so far out on Spire and Boneyard. I think Breakpoint is moving in the right direction. Will do.
Tier 3- I expected camping in the top room by the core, and I was right, there was. I was doing it myself. But through all the camping the spartans still got the core every game, and once it was off the top floor it never was re-captured. I noticed that the fighting was fairly balanced, with the core only inching along with every other attack, but once it was around the corner it was gone. Sure the elites stopped it once or twice after that, but Spartans gained a lot more ground after that, and after it hit the water we had no chance whatsoever. If you have any budget, I would suggest some kind of pier or boardwalk when the water is reached to keep lines of sight for defenders chasing it down the mountain, starting where the core is usually dropped off the cliff into the water and with a stair case on one side for the spartans to get up on. The core would have to be taken to the end of the pier, keeping with the idea of the map and the actual Silent Cartographer map where you get picked up by a pelican at the end of the structure. I feel this addition will make it harder for the spartans by keeping the capture area exposed. Also, the backfield spawn for the elites in phase 3 seemed too far after the core had moved away from the base, leaving me running longer in this phase than in 2. Overall- I LOVED it! If there was any Invasion map to be put into matchmaking this should be it. Weapons seemed balanced (albeit that stupid Fuel Rod gun I kept getting killed by, but even that fit well.) I enjoyed playing all of the games and would be happy to play Custom games anytime with you or anyone else there (albeit the drunk guys from HBO later that night.) Play you again soon, great map that I have finally played more that 1 v. 1 on! [br][/br]Edited by merge: OK, that sucks, my comment got cut in half. Don't worry though, most of what I wrote about phase 1/2 was praise, all of the constructive criticism was for 3. Also wanted to say that there were spawn camping issues for the elite spawn under the rock in phase 2, mostly with the rocket launcher, but that wasn't too bad.
This map is amazing, and is one of the best invasion maps I have played if not the best. Seeing the comparison to halo that u have made. It is epic. The video is captivating and I watched the whole thing. Great work on this epic map. I can learn a lot from this invasion map
Got a 4-on-4 game going on this map yesterday... it was awesome. Phase 1 was tons of fun, the sniper proved to be instrumental in breaking up a tough Elite defense and the contrast between the two territories kept things exciting. The second phase was just as fun as the first, the distances involved were no problem with the Warthog and Mongeese present. In fact, I think they actually benefit gameplay by giving the attackers "staging time" to coordinate an attack strategy on the drive over. Phase 3 had some core-room camping issues, but I think that's more so because it's simply the most effective strategy when on defense, and not necessarily a flaw in the map. All Bungie-made Invasion maps have similar issues, and it's nothing that a well-coordinated team can't handle (with help from a rocket launcher). Overall, great map. Everyone in my party loved it.
Thanks Knizzle! I never really thought of the drive time that way, but I think you're right. Speaking of strategy, if you can get the Warthog past the Elites and behind the Dish, it's a pretty good tactic for covering Spartans trying to take the point. Just have them back off a little, and pick off any lingering Defenders with the Hog's turret. Just gotta watch out for Stickies! True. The Core room isn't impervious to camping, but I don't think it's as bad as Boneyard. The Tower's interior is actually somewhat cramped - making a frag or grenade launcher round a good choice for flushing out or killing campers. Like you said, having the rocket launcher doesn't hurt either. Awesome. You have no idea how happy that makes me. Halo + Good Buddies + Map You Like = Pure Fun.
After almost nine months this is still holding strong as one of my favorite invasion maps of all time. You really captured what invasion is with this map, and I can't say you have left anything unbalanced. Each phase has at least three varied paths, from head on assault to sneak, and for once defense actually has as much fun as offense. This map hasn't aged with time, and a year after Reach came out and 3/4 of a year after you released Hushed I would still play on it any day of the week! This is one of the only real 10/10 maps I know of, Amazing!
I haven't actually gotten to play this yet, but I have done a forge-through and run0-through of the objectives with Shoe. I gotta say, I am impressed. Hopefully I'll get to play this sometime, but it looks like it could be the best Invasion map around.
There are not very many videos that sell me on a map, but your video was epic. It really captured a atmosphere that felt like a crazy chaotic HALO CE fight to the death. Just from the video and a fly through I have to say this looks like one heck of a map. My only concern would have to be the second phase. I understand that you wanted to break the map up, and make sure that it was not all CQC; yet I feel like the second phase could really slow down gameplay on this map. Although, this might not be the case, I have not played on this. I hope I can get enough people to test this out! It looks to be a lot of fun!
I can't say enough how amazing this map is. Very few maps manage to take CE gameplay and tweak it to suit the way that people play today without straying too far from the original map. And the campaign no less! You sir have my deppest thanks.
As soon as I saw this thread i was stuned, it looked and felt just like the Silent Cartographer. i liked the loadouts as well for the invasion gametype.
I've played this map so many times and never once found it enjoyable. I don't understand the hype around it and why people keep reviving the thread to a map which was never good in the first place. If I necrobump a thread to a truly great map, I get an infraction. If anyone else necrobumps an average map, their post stays. I don't understand how the system works here. Make a good post, get punished for it. Make a bad post, get rewarded for it. 7/10 map at best. If you actually put some effort into the gameplay rather than the aesthetics, then this map could probably be an overall great competitive map, instead of an average Invasion map. If this wins the next FHF, I'm going to facepalm.
Thank you. Now no one else has to say it. – – – I've known this map for quite a while. Bones helped me a lot when I fist started so I've seen it and played it quite a lot as it was tweaked and improved. This may give me an unfair disposition towards it, but honestly I think it is one of the most fun invasion maps out there, and it along with Summit are the only 6 v. 6 invasion games I would suggest for matchmaking use (Because Cargo Port is 4 v. 4 only it would be left out sadly.) Even so, I decided to take a few hours and analyze both this and Summit again from a more objective standpoint. After a long while I think I can articulate the few things I don't like on each and found a lot of similarities. I'll list a few thoughts here: 1. On phase 1, the layout and fighting is fun, but can be a little bit of a spraying spree. This prevents the area from being overpowered by the elites, but in the future I wouldn't mind seeing a phase 1 with a little more precision fighting. Once again, this works well and I don't think it can or should be changed, but in the future it's something to think about. 2. Okay, the walk on phase 2 is a little long. I personally don't usually mind it, but if defense is doing well it can be frustrating to die a lot. In testing the new objective helps with this, but maybe it could be a little easier to attack on foot or just a little closer. It might make for less of those times where elites are just sitting and waiting. Even just one fire team out on the beach halfway there makes sense when you look at it. 3. From a forging perspective, the one regular entrance to the core room (without jetpack at least) is a bad idea, but in testing it has never been a big issue. Occasionally some team will hold it well enough, but psychologically it feels wrong and easier for elites. I've sometimes thought a path leading in where the secret jetpacker window is would make sense, though it would have to be positioned so it was used equally with the inside passage. Besides these three things, I absolutely love the map, and I honestly want to play it more again (ahh, the good old days of playing it every week... hey wait a minute, it's Friday night!) The reason people keep it alive is because it is a very good map with more thought put into it than most out there. After last night, I'm still not quite sure which of the two is my absolute favorite, but no matter what, this is still a masterpiece.
Fact is I really enjoy seeing more people use Forerunner designs in there maps, I loved Halo CE for its unique aesthetics and things id never saw before in any game. This makes me feel at home playing on something familiar but also different in its own unique way, this is why I enjoyed bishop, and support Muffins new map Electron. While each map no matter how well designed has its flaws, the Hushed Apprentice doesnt seem to have very many down sides, it's a balanced and aesthetically pleasing and familiar invasion experience. While some areas may not be completely accurate to Halo CE's design of the similiar area thats been created, I can tell a lot of work went into making this a worthwhile experience for the community as well as a way to bring us back to the days of Halo CE. And to see that work has been done to make the map better as a whole over time and not just thrown away, I can tell theres a dedicated person behind his creation, and by us giving him our own opinions it will only become better. As far as changes, I think the dish base area could be made cleaner and more like the Halo CE area, right now it feels lacking compared to the other bases, maybe it needs moar purple crates ? While it doesnt affect gameplay I just feel itd add more to the theme atleast if your pulling from the source( Silent Cartographer). The map itself is very enjoyable and a blast to play with good friends and im glad it was released after a long wait. Honestly cant wait to see your next project, preview whens?
Pretty much this. I've played it once or twice it didn't really enjoy it. Probably because I'm not a big fan of Invasion itself, but still. There have been so many Invasion maps on the island on Forge World. It just does not play well. Biggest problem with this and so many other BTB maps is that it's pretty much pre-baked geometry (Forge World itself) and some random Forge objects placed into it. Just look at the first phase, it's just a bunch of rocks thrown into a field. It's not interesting at all. All you can do is run towards the hills and hope for the best. There's hardly any way to flank and there are no interesting elevated areas. Another note, defender shouldn't be able to see both hills from one point. This makes it way too easy to defend. You've gotta find a good balance between it being too easy and too hard to defend. This phase clearly doesn't succeed in doing that. Second round is ruined by the fact that the attacking team has to pass through a bottleneck of epic proportions. Also, the defenders spawn practically next to the hills making it even easier to defend. I guess the third phase is the least worse, but it also has major problems. Like I said earlier most of the map has pre-baked geometry and it becomes painfully clear in this round. The only thing people have to do is jetpack up the platform (ignoring the rest of the entire building) grab the core and go back out. The Forge objects have so little impact on this map. You can probably remove 90% of the objects and the map would still play fairly the same. You're not playing on a Forge map, you're playing on the Forge World island with a only a few impactful objects on it. It's the same as 90% of the Hemorrhage Forge map variants. Changing the geometry of the buildings won't change a whole lot. The map will still play mostly the same. To be honest the only Forge Invasion map I've actually enjoyed playing on was that map that was based on a part of New Alexandria. I can't remember the name, but it was 100% build out of Forge objects making it so much more original and fun to play.
Different strokes for different folks, man. Dude, I'd love to hear how to improve it for competitive play. Would you be willing to write some examples down, or do a fly-through with me? Thank you for the feedback, I'll definitely give it some thought. In response to the selected text above, consider that when you have a large map with a limited budget, you can't afford to make every inch of the map unique like you can with small/medium maps. I decided to focus on the three objective areas/set peices that I felt were most important to the essence of the theme and gametype.
It's good to see this finally win Bones. Shoe and i just did an hour long analytic fly-through the other day, and the way this map fits together is impressive. i really want to get some games on this sometime. Good work Bones!
It seems like every FHF, there's a map or two that I just don't understand. This would be the odd one out this time, so it seems. I'll attempt to discuss my issues here. While I may not have created an invasion map, I've seen the progression of multiple invasion maps, and have had discussions with the folks over at the Satyros Invasion testing branch. There's a reason why no maps have been included into matchmaking yet; these guys are true-blood bungie invasion connoisseurs, whose standards are higher than.... well I don't know what. Yet talking with these guys is pretty revealing. There really isn't a phase that I don't have a complaint about, so I'll start with the first. You're given a vast, open area to fight in, and you don't give elites any form of precision weapon aside from the needler, which while effective, runs out of ammo very quickly. The problem is, the spartans are given magnums, and for lack of a better word, magnums rape those elites. The first phase has this weird sort of balance, where it's either an easy shut-out, or a gimme round. In the case of a shut out, elites use spartan's weapons to kill them off spawn. In the case of a gimme, elites don't wise up to the idea of using the spartan's weapons. The middle ground usually appears in less competitive environments, where people could hold off pretty well for a while, then just stop trying. This is obviously an assumption, but I'm guessing that that's creating sort of an illusionary balance that you deemed acceptable at one point. As for the second phase, this is the really broken one. Spartans have to walk for ages just to be killed and start all over. The walking distance would be acceptable if you had more than a single path, but that choke point just makes the game frustrating. It's difficult, if not impossible, to use the buddy-system spawning to shorten the walk, because waypoints just reveal your position on this single path, and you get hunted down. On a side note, if I remember correctly, the loadouts for this phase were really odd. There's one class with the NR, and that class also has evade, which is usually the most treasured elite loadout in invasion. It was rare that people ever chose a different class on the defending team. And then there's the third phase. The main thing that bothers me about this phase is the lack of any intuitive pathways. Trying to access the different floors can get confusing, even if it seems simple to you as the map creator. The weird access routes usually mess with both teams; elites who can't help their teammates defend the core, because they can't get to it in time, and spartans who can't get inside the building in the first place. I could go into more detail, but this is just another one of those situations that doesn't make sense to me. I see a map that has a nice theme and cool screenshots, yet receiving so many accolades for gameplay when there are so many flaws, many of which directly hinder the enjoyment factor... I just don't even know. I'd like to see this map restructured, but it might need to be totally redesigned.
right. Anymore spam in here will get automatic infractions. Leave feedback on the map or get out. "Please try to make a valid contribution in your posts, such that the reader is provided content of relevance and interest. Double check what you've written before posting, and take enough time to post something constructive to the map creator." You guys have been talking about the moderators on this site not the map. Not one of the posts you guys have had (other than Overdoziz) have had a good reflection of having played the map and giving constructive feedback to the map creator. If you have beef with any of the moderators on this site then bring it up with them with solid evidence.
Congratulations on the feature, well deserved... this is a great remake of the campaign mission that we will all be replaying in the new halo ce soon. I noticed some comparison pictures of the different area on one of your posts, it would be better in my opinion on the actual map thread to show just how close you have the different areas looking. I have enjoyed many games on this and its one of the best invasion maps I have played ever.