You don't appear to have an argument, so my encouraging you to produce one is hardly an insult. On topic, what are the long term plans for the group? Are they just in it for the long haul? Any more significant events planned?
Dammit guys. I really wish I had time to argue in this. I'm glad its taken off, though. Keep it classy. I'm off to read more about primate social systems (wait... is that relevant to this?)
You work, you are paid, a mugger forcibly takes part of your money. You work, you are paid, a government forcibly takes part of your money. What's the difference? No hurr durr benefiting society is not an answer.
^ This Whenever you have the opposing parties blockading legislation just because the other side proposed it, or vote it down because it has things that can limit potential money sources for their campaign so they water legislation down to nothing useful progress cannot be made. btw...the thing about most of the 1%...they keep making large amounts of money, few of them are just wealthy inheritance people. So increasing taxes for them by 1-2% is hardly robbing them.
This is an awful analogy because you're equating a mugger to the government and all the services it provides for you as a US citizen. What's more, the mugger would also be mugged along with everyone else, so you're not a "victim". I find it sad that so many people have developed such a selfish mentality that even taxes themselves have become "evil". Not only do we have lower taxes than a lot of civilized countries, but our predecessors actually fought in favor of taxation so long as we had adequate representation. It's absurd that some of us have come to demonize taxes just because the money might be used for something we don't want for ourselves. In any case, taxation is a separate issue. I would only like to see the power and influence of corporations within our government lessened along with some more regulation. I don't care how much money is being made or paid, though we will inevitably have to consider our debt sooner or later.
people following this may have already seen this article, but for those who arent paying close attention: this reporter got arrested down there and wrote a first hand account of what happened. its some pretty scary ****. Naomi Wolf: How I was arrested at Occupy Wall Street | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk [br][/br]Edited by merge: article dispelling many myths about the OWS protests: Keith Boykin: Everything The Media Told You About Occupy Wall Street Is Wrong [br][/br]Edited by merge: "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson (maybe you heard of him?)
So if everyone was murdered there'd be no victims? It's selfish to want to keep what you earned yourself, yet it is generous to steal people's money and use it for your own purposes? If I was selfish maybe I'd go and get a job. America hasn't always had an income tax, and it isn't needed for government services, calling bullshit on founders supporting income taxation. Estonia has a 21% flat tax, yet it has the lowest public debt in the EU, got a credit upgrade and is considered one of the best performers during the GFC. What regulation do you want exactly? If you want to go down this road you better have some actual facts to back your **** up because I have studied this a lot more than you have. [br][/br]Edited by merge: P.S. Even Keynes knew that raising taxes during a downturn was a bad idea.
All you're doing is making outrageous analogies and ridiculous black and white comparisons. If you actually know something about the subject, why on earth would you only make inane comments that come off just as empty as the hippies making the unreasonable claims in this movement? I was referring to the Boston Tea Party, and I thought "representation" would be enough to tip you off. Taxes are necessary unless you're talking about privatizing everything or something equally off-the-wall. America's income tax has been as high as 90% before, though obviously on a much smaller portion of the public. It was 50% as recently as the 80's. To say that taxes shouldn't increase at all for any percentage of the top earners is simply stubborn and foolish; indeed, talk of the spoiled. This is only income tax, by the way. This doesn't even take into account the other taxes like the capital gains I mentioned before. Numbers are low across the board, and these are breaks that only the wealthiest even notice to begin with. For instance, a bump in the estate tax exclusion from 2 million up to 5 million isn't something that either of us are likely to gain from in our lifetimes. As for Estonia, good for them. However, you can't compare the taxes of two completely different countries when there are so many other factors involved. There are plenty of practices we might be able to borrow from other countries, but we're never going to pass such "extreme" legislation with our system as it currently exists. Just look at how watered-down and weak the health care bill ended up. As for which road I'd like to take, I would prefer the one that stays on topic, that being OWS and related speculation or repercussions. Your baseless assumption about my knowledge base is duly noted, though.
I'm talking about income taxes, which are not necessary (though obviously at this point they are), America's income tax has been as low as 0% before, it was the US' most prosperous period. Under Carter, taxes were around 90%, the economy stagnated and inflation skyrocketed. America is just behind Japan as having the 2nd highest rate of taxation. Estonia is perfectly comparable to the United States, you compared "civilised" countries too remember? You have the gall to call people selfish yet you think taxes should only serve you or me? Believe it or not the rich are not fruit for you to suck dry, they worked to get where they are and contribute **** loads more than you do. Oh wait they're simply "spoiled". I still want to know what new regulations you'd suggest. OT: OWS will achieve nothing of worth, at most it will increase federal powers and pass some irresponsible legislation to placate the masses.
I'm talking about all taxes, because no one is going to single out the income tax. They don't really need to be discussed here, but you can't pretend they aren't just as much of a factor. Taxes first breached 90% around the end of WWII, hardly an economic slump. I also found the graph you're looking at, and we're actually second in corporate taxes, not personal income. You can clearly tell that many of the other European countries and even Canada have a higher rate than us. No surprise considering they enjoy perks like free healthcare and better funding for higher education. This data is six years old, by the way. Ignoring all the obvious differences between our countries, Estonia also has more people in poverty and a higher unemployment rate. I'm not envious of a slightly lower income tax if I'm still jobless and poor. The regulation we need is just enough to hold corporations accountable for their practices. It was the complete lack of regulation and oversight that allowed these "bubbles" to manifest in the first place in the banking and housing markets. Not only should such bubbles not exist, but their creators should not get off scot-free after they burst.
It's not the 5th yet, derp Based, you're like a slightly better form of Rush Limbaugh. I say slightly better because you seem to have actually researched some statistics at one point that you have found on google as opposed to just saying sensationalist bull crap. You do that to, but to a lesser degree. I would love to hear, the full explanation of what you think would fix the country. Or if the country does not need fixing how so. So far what I've gleaned from your crap is we should kill all the liberals or anyone that believes in sharing as they are liberals in training. We should do away with all taxes or perhaps lower them further until they are meaningless. Big business should have no regulations whatsoever and those nice generous CEOs and Board members looking out for their employees will naturally come around and make the country a better place if it wasn't for big bad government occasionally telling them what to do. Social Security? What a leftist piece of garbage, throw that away, Republicans were originally against it so screw SS. Medicare/Medicade? Throw those away too, too much of our none war budget is going toward that. On topic: I support everything chrono said. The whole point of Occupy Wall Street is corporations should be held more accountable for their actions. Not just get a slight tap on the wrist and be told to "knock it off or else"
I said we were second in corporate taxes, not income. Free healthcare? They still pay for it, it just isn't voluntary. Yes healthcare needs to be fixed I know. Capitalism does not work overnight, Estonia is a post-Soviet country, the most successful one at that, it needs time. It has always had high unemployment, it does not need as many people working as the USA. Saying that the GFC happened simply because of unregulated banks is not correct. The bubble was created by Fannie/ Freddie and the Federal Reserve. Barney Frank wanted every minority (Bush and Clinton also did this), to quote him "I do not want the same kind of focus on safety and soundness [in the regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] that we have in the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Office of Thrift Supervision. I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidised housing". This forced down interest rates artificially. You could argue that Fannie/ Freddie needed to be regulated (they were, it was just broken regulation), however they are GSE's and not a part of the free market. If you want to debate all of that (as there is still no agreed on cause of the GFC), then you can at least admit the banks (or at least the decision makers within the banks), were insulated from risk, again by the Fannie/ Freddie and the Fed. Who bought a **** load of those toxic securities? Fannie/ Freddie, and they still do it today. Who bailed out the banks? The Fed, you could argue that the banks didn't know they'd be bailed out, but they knew it would cause a moral hazard otherwise. Krugman himself said that we need to create a housing bubble after the dot come bubble, while Schiff predicted the bust in 2006. So anyone who is right wing is Rush Limbaugh? What we should do immediately: Pull out of all wars and foreign bases reducing military spending by at least 50%, deregulate the private health industry (get rid of the FDA), legalize the use and the selling of all drugs (a potentially huge industry), tighten welfare requirements, legalize prostitution, de-regulate many industries to help small businesses (29% of jobs now require some sort of license, it used to be 4%), close tax loopholes. In the long term (as in decades down the track): Lower income and eliminate land tax, raise the sales tax, get rid of all sorts of welfare (maybe not disability), eliminate the minimum wage and any other form of protectionism.