I haven't made a map yet. I don't intend to make one anytime soon. So, all of my opinions are based off of my impressions as a player. And, as Forgers, it's the players that you want to hear from, right? A little constructive criticism: Please pay attention to detail. I can't say how many maps I've played and thrown away because they just felt fake, stupid, or worst, cheap. I'll start with weapon spawns. Who in their right mind would leave a sniper rifle laying flat on the ground? That's right, no one. Please, please, either lean it against a wall or place it on a small crate. This tiny little difference ends up affecting the very nature of the map. If a professional sniper would leave it on a crate instead of lying in the sand, then put it on a crate! The same with a rocket launcher. Honestly, why would you ever put something like that on the ground? To me, a normal player, nothing is less exciting then walking over an item to pick it up. There's just something more thrilling about seeing it leaning against a wall, begging to be used, rather than, "Oh, look. And incredibly powerful weapon someone left lying in the dirt. I'll just grab that there..." Basically, it decides the difference between an OK map and a thoroughly impressive map. Secondly, try varying the map feel. Yes, a slightly edited version of Last Resort might make it more balanced. That doesn't at all mean it will be more fun. I think Tunnel Raid 2.0 is a great example of this. The first twenty times I played I had trouble even recognizing the architecture (this is also due to all the mania, fire, and general fun going on). Only after I broke out of the level did I realize where the heck on Last Resort I was. This is the kind of thing that really lasts; people don't remember a map where only weapon spawns were changed. Players recall the levels that feel like they were created from scratch, or released as downloadable content. It's bringing life to old levels, not just reworking old levels to make them seem better (while never newer). Originality is key! Finally, it doesn't have to be MLG balanced (whatever that means). I will again use Tunnel Raid 2.0, and also the Pillar of Death mini-game. Having perfectly balanced weapons is fun for, oh, twenty minutes. Having a blast at a game, laughing your head off, screaming at the top of your lungs while diving for a flag as you're incinerated by yet another fire bomb...that is what I call a good map. Yes, both teams want a fair chance, and, yes, nobody wants twelve spartan lasers on one map. But don't make the mistake of thinking that good maps can only have a few well-placed battle rifles. Give us variety! These are just a few things I've noticed as I've played. As I think over the maps I continue to play (Cell Block 71, Tunnel Raid, Fire Lane, Pillar of Death), I realize that they added something to the level, virtually making it a new level. Let Bungie perfect the battle rifle spawns in their auto-updates; how 'bout we make really good maps, in the meantime?
I really believe in the "small things" idea. Here is a small paragraph I wrote on the issue when I was doing my map. One thing I dislike about other’s maps is the general uncaring attitude of the forger. A lot of Forgers place items anywhere and make things look messy, because they don’t spend time messing with Forge, or because they want to get it over with quickly. I spend time making objects the way I want and try new things until it’s placed right. I just don’t throw stuff in random places. Many maps have fallen victim to “lets throw **** in syndrome”, mainly D-day and war maps. Every single piece of scenery in this map is placed with care whether it looks it or not. Weapons aren’t place in weapon holders or just randomly on the floor, they lean on the walls and are placed in an orderly fashion. I try to tell a story with just objects. (Talking about the map here) Obviously Traxus is some kind of shipping company so it has a lot of boxes and crates in it’s Factory. My favourite example of story oriented objects is the lone sniper area. The placing suggests a story in itself; maybe the little security guard got bored of his position and sat down in the camping stool. He probably fell off to his death shortly after. Or how about this truck moving blockades into the door? It suggests the employees probably tried to defend from an oncoming threat. I strongly agree with you lance, these quirky things make maps or break them. I hope more people notice this thread to get some good ideas.
Im with u on the MLG (Major League Gaming) maps. they are pretty stupid. im with u on everything else too but especially MLG maps.
I don't see how MLG matches would be any fun. Their rules state that rocket launchers can't be used. That sounds like no fun.
Competitively, I find MLG quite rewarding - at least I did in Halo 2. But certainly not 'fun' in the sense you put it - more 'competitive fun', if you know what I mean. Anyway, that's beside the point. I agree with you both Lance and Fbu, it's the details and polishing that can make or break maps. There's a line between sufficient detail and unnecessary cluttering of the map, though.
I see what you're saying, AZN. Like, in the middle of Valhalla it would be best balanced to have a rocket launcher. However, then I would still try to use a drop pod or something to make it just so that the rocket launcher wouldn't have to lie on the ground. I do completely agree about balance before aesthetics. I think that the problem is that most people have neither or one, and hardly ever both. The ones that manage to achieve both really outshine the others. It's great to have a racecourse, for instance, that you can't cheat on. But it's even better to have one that has a theme, scenery, fun jumps, etc. I do still wish that more people would realize that maps are not made by good ideas, but by good execution. I've seen so many great concepts butchered by crappy jobs...
And that's why I exist... if people would pay respects and hear out my opinion sometimes then we could excel... when cottage and myself build maps he deals with the good ideas, scenery, environment, etc... I deal with balancing, logic, and execution... basically he gets whack ideas and I make them work. Before he became a guilder, I taught him about how taking time to splace you objects really makes a difference. Later he saw a particular map and it finally dawned on him. Now he takes his time to make things perfect. And I agree that most people have one or the other. But we can assure you with the mixed talents of Guilders that we can deliver, or do our best until we learn. And come to think of it I think Cottage and I might take some time to add some good aesthetics to our AZN Cottages after we finish them. It would be nice to have your support Lance. I see that you are pretty knowledgeable and understand the important stuff. We need more active members like you (and Wakko, Fbu, etc.). Keep up the good work.
Yeah, one of my eariler maps, WoodLands 2 had NO scenery at all. In my 3rd version I'm working on I've made little "camps" but couldn't really do much else for scenery because I have $3 dollars left. :-\ I would have liked to add more scenery. Agreed.
It's hard to balance the two out, I'm contantly get "too many objects on the map". I have to cut out the less important scenery to fix balancing, but I still have to make sure areas don't feel to empty or too overcrowded.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Luckily my map is on Valhalla so it isn't crowded but most of money and objects went into the map itself. I deleted a few pointless things to add some of the scenery but can't really delete much more.
People who play MLG are the ones who won't shut up about how noobish you are if you killed them with powerful weapons. They treat Halo like a competitive sport, not a game.
To be honest it's the few individuals for whom being good at Halo is so tied up with their ego that they behave like jerks. They give the rest a bad name, so please don't make sweeping statements. I play MLG, as I said, yet I always try to be polite and friendly in games. It's off topic anyway, so let's move on, eh? It's always frustrating when you get to the item limit but haven't used up the whole budget. I would always prioritise balancing and so on, but the small things ice the cake, so to speak. The problem is that for most people it goes largely unnoticed, but the subtle effect it can have can transform a map from being dull looking into something strangely attractive and engrossing. "Why is this map so damn good? Man, let's play it again!" That's the ideal anyway. :
Exactly! Possibly the most satisfying thing for me to do in forge is to place equiptment on weapon holders. Oh, the joy!
I agree, but sometimes its hard with limited items... on many maps I would like to place something like a computer but of course that certain map doesn’t have computers when a map like isolation has computers... It would help a lot if we had more items to add details in our map. But I’m sure (after seeing the pictures) that we will have a larger variety… (like the truck in the left side of the foundry picture)
Yeah I hate how some maps can't use certains items my d-day map could be so kick ass with the added use of the backbacks flamethrowers etc... but instead I have to work with what I can.
The whole limited cash idea frustrates me so often. I understand the need for it (how much fun is a laggy game?), but it's also ridiculous sometimes. Thanks for the compliment, AZN. I realize that I have no Forging experience whatsoever, but I like to think that my impressions from playing others' maps has given me some small knowledge on what works best. I think the key is to think as the player would, not as the Forger does. I mean, sure, your idea is great...in your mind. But, honestly, in the end, will everyone want to play it? Will it be, "OMG I've just got to play ________ again! It was so much fun!" or "Dear God, anything, ANYTHING but ________!!!" Personally, I'd go for the first one. And the little things are the difference between those two exclamations. And, secondly, placing yourself in the player's position. Map testing helps a lot, yeah, in finding glitches and ways to screw the map, but the best maps come from rigorous testing in which the "testers" simply played the map over and over and over, and then decided on what could make it more fun. This kind of testing better reflects what the end product will be, because it changes the Forgers into their audience: players. In essence, make it pretty, make it work, but, for heaven's sake, make it fun. If we wanted a boring map, we'd walk through our offices a couple million times...
Yes Lance is absolutely right about play testing I have found so many glitches in all my maps from Play testing.