An "inspired by" map is not the same as a remake. There are a lot of things about Metropolis that are not taken from headlong. Going for the feel or basic concept of a map does not mean there is not originality involved. Also, with regard to Hivemind: it is a BTB map. Some linearity is desired in a two-base vehicle-friendly objective map. That said, there are several winding paths across the map, and the layout is wide enough that combat across the cross section was just as common, especially in non-objective games.
Ark is a very well made map and beautiful in its simplicity. Hivemind has linear paths, but more winding ones. Not to mention the inclusion of aircraft means you dont always have to be on a path even. Metropolis is not a remake. Orbis is a very well made and fun 2v2 map and just because you arent used to something about a map doesnt mean its bad. Mineral is a well made and aesthetically wonderful map. These maps all deserve respect and a place in the FHF, unfortunately some cannot see that they are fantastic creations and not all can be in the FHF unfortunately. If I could I would have all 5 featured, as they all should be. This is a section of the result of forging since Reach's release and the progress these Forgers have made is impressive to say the least. Why you can't see any of that is beyond me. Maybe try playing the maps before you judge them.
/ass kissery All map critiques need to remain in their respective threads. They do not in any way belong in here. Or, you know, you'll get infracted.
Im not saying they are perfect, im saying they are all very well made. I have issues with many of them on some aspects, but I appreciate the works. Just because I dont think someone should not say they are bad maps or un-original doesnt mean I'm kissing ass.
This thread can still be used for CC. There's no reason that the maps themselves should be bumped for discussion if the topic is started here surely? And the main reasons the topics start are due to them being the reasons why people made their votes respectively.
Metropolis is not a remake. I invite you to actually look at the thread, the second picture is a nice overview shot that should hopefully make this very clear.
You're making an extreme example with the Colliseum Wall map, but I guess I should have worded my stand differently. When I say "originality", I think of the layout as a whole, which very well could be original. I come from a community full of players who give much more attention and appreciation to those who remake previous Bungie made maps, and ignore the people who take the time and dedication to design their own map...so I have hard feelings towards remakes and heavily inspired maps, even though I know some of them are good. [br][/br]Edited by merge: "Heavily inspired" is a remake with a few changes. I did not say there isn't originality involved, but there is not as much originality involved as and original creation. Whoever actually designs their maps and shows attention to detail will always have my vote. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I know each map has its strong points, but that is not what you should be focused on. It's the weak points that set them apart. I didn't say Metropolis is a remake, it is heavily inspired which is a remake, but with changes. If I am going up a ramp and I am forced to do a 135 degree turn to access the most powerful position on the map, then that is called an awkward connection. If I had known that, I wouldn't have voted for it.
Well sometimes good maps doesn't need to planned first. Quote by Sinlesslegend. Oh by the way I made a mini model of it before i started, and I spent 20 min on that.
Well, nothing has to be planned out entirely, I planned out Mineral using a little mode, and it took twenty min, and I spent alot of time testing it, just ask the testers.
That's good that you spent a good amount of time testing and listening to feedback. In the future, you should spend more time designing your map so you are sure how it will flow, how balanced it is, what LoS it has, how large the rooms are, how the connections work, where the power weapons belong, etc. It is much more practical and ideal to design a map before forging it.
I told you i did, I tried alot of different designs by creating miniature versions of it, I ended up with six designs and chose the best one.
Well, if you designed it, why did you imply that you went into forge and threw pieces down last page. You're giving me mixed messages.
Xzamples, I think I can shed light on why the debate over Metropolis is going on. Metropolis took inspiration from headlong, but it's layout is completely original and took no actual areas from Headlong. Mock played Headlong for a long time and decided to make a map that would bring back memories of the great BTB games he played back then. While it has some aesthetic similarities, walking around Headlong and walking around Metropolis are extremely different, someone new to both may not even see similarities. The ONLY area even close to Headlong's layout is the ramp by red base, which connects to an area that is once again original, and even that ramp isn't quite the same. Overall, a map cannot be considered a remake because of the severe lack of matching areas. Even a re-imagination is going too far, as the map does not strive to bring back headlong specifically, but something that played as well as it with some references to it in structure, though not actual layout. I don't quite agree with the rest of your criticism, but I felt more compelled to write about Metropolis as Mock is mah bro. I hope this can help clear some things up.
Just a quick little note; just because a map isn't sketched out before-hand, doesn't mean it isn't designed. Lux, a map by myself and AceofSpades, only had an aesthetic idea to begin with. The design evolved with what we built. Actually, that goes with all of Ace's maps. He NEVER plans them out, he just knows what creates a good design, and uses concepts to built his maps. You should never judge a map by the process by which it is made, that's simply stupid. Even if it's a random chance accident. You judge maps by their own merit.
Blunt question time: have you played ANY of the maps? Or even downloaded them and walked around them? If all these comments are coming from your impressions based on screenshots and videos, that's not exactly meaningful engagement with them. I have a hard time with criticism from someone who looked at my map thread for a few minutes when I spent dozens of hours over a number of weeks designing, building, testing and refining my map, and listening to feedback from a large number of players; and I'm guessing the other authors here feel much the same. Your intentions may be good but it kinda rubs people the wrong way. And on top of that, it's a little disconcerting that you'd want to change your vote not based on any particulars of a map's design, but on HOW it was made. If it's good, it's good, even if it was made by a monkey beating on a controller randomly. (Which I'm pretty sure is how Uncaged was made, and it's halfway playable, right...? )
I understand the layout and architecture of Metropolis. I made my points for why I picked Mineral over the others. You may not agree with my criticism, but it's probably because you don't want to offend people. Having something to say that helps people and keeping quiet is worse than helping people in a brutally honest style. I understand a lot of people don't like how I criticize maps, but ever since I've been giving feedback, I've done it straight to the point. I'm not going to tip-toe around people's feelings. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Actually sketching it beforehand, or on a computer, or with legos, or string does mean you designed it. If you started forging on the released version with nothing but a few ideas, you did not design it. And if that applies to Lux, so be it. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I focus on someone's knowledge in map design. Plain and simple. I did not think my reasonings for voting on a map would cause such a stir. I forgot how sensitive Forgehub can be. Next time, I will vote for a map with no explanations of why like everyone else.
We don't want you to give no reasons Xzample, but you are not elaborating on anything you say and you have not left constructive criticism in most cases. Example: You previously stated that Hivemind is extremely linear. What you did not say was what you would change in this case or why this is, or even why this would be a problem. Nutduster can't take anything from your criticism except that you don't like his map. It is perfectly fine to have strong, pointed opinions that differ from the norm (that is found in many of the most influential people on FH) but you have failed to support your arguments in most cases. My other issue is that you have refused to answer any of our posts in your replies. In my post I tried to explain how Metropolis is not a remake, but an original design with some ideas inspired by Headlong. You replied with a statement that I was too afraid to post harsh criticism, a point irrelevant to anything I had said prior. In your reply to Nut's question of whether you had played or looked at the maps in-game, you responded with a contradictory explanation that you only focussed on the designers knowledge of map design, which unless you have known Nutduster for a long time the only way to judge the value of his map would be to analyze it in-game where you could understand all aspects of it. We are all having trouble taking your feedback seriously, as you have attacked most of the maps up this term yet have done nothing to support these accusations. If you decide to respond, please collect your thoughts and try to address the questions map makers have posted. I'm done with the conversation, it's the map creators who need to understand your feedback, not me. I hope we can understand each other and learn from your insights in the future, I am sure the designers would be more than happy if you explain your posts more in depth.
It was merely my reasonings for not voting for them. It's hard to answer all the questions when you have 10 people yelling at you, lol. I apologize if any of you took my criticism rude. Let's stop arguing. For future reference: I will vote for maps that have an original design, unique gameplay, and attention to detail. I won't vote for remakes or heavily inspired maps. I understand some people will disagree with me, but we are all entitled to our opinions.