Bloomless DMR :D

Ok, I'm gonna be blunt here: you're wrong.

It is not even nearly 10% of the time that the RoF shown here works at that range. If anything, saying it's over 50% was a conservative estimate, it's actually closer to 70-80% of the time and above that it works (and that's only online, don't get me started on LAN). Yes, he could have fired slower since the guy was no shields, but how could he have known he was going to miss 6 shots due to randomness? The fair assumption to make in that circumstance is that you'll get the kill in 3-4 shots at most, and at the very least you will get it, so waiting for the perfectly accurate shot gives the opponent time to land extra shots on you, meaning you'll be weaker when you exit the engagement, more liable to be cleaned up etc.

The key approach when in any encounter is not just to win, but to win as quickly as possible and with as little damage taken as possible. Seriously, why do people keep going with this 'spamming only works a very small amount of the time' bullshit? 10%? That's a joke of an estimation. Watch the best slayers in MLG, they all fire at about this RoF when fighting at the range shown (obviously adapting for further range, but hell even then not by much), and they do incredibly well. Do you really think the best Reach players there are would use an RoF which is only effective 10% of the time, just to be bloodyminded and 'spite' bloom?

Will people please, for the love of god, actually start thinking about what they say in discussions like this, rather than simply going 'I like things the way they are' and then somehow concocting skewed logic to back up a point of view they've already decided upon?

Yes, precisely, in this particular circumstance, whereas I could find so many other clips where what is classed as 'spamming' in this clip (because it doesn't work) actually works. Inconsistency, that is the problem.

The AR is a close to mid range weapon, the DMR is not. My hair is a bird, your argument is invalid.

Zomg, you mean if we pace then we'll always be 100% accurate? I never knew that! It's not like the problem is that spamming works plenty of the time, so no matter how much 'pacing' (which we can probably both agree is timing your shots to achieve full accuracy based on the range of your current encounter) may bring consistency, the inconsistency of spamming means that it will win some, even most of the time.

DMR with bloom, the most important things are: aiming, pushing past the logical RoF and entrusting the outcome to luck
DMR without bloom, the most important things are: aiming. Without bloom there is no spamming, spamming is a term relative to bloom, ie. firing faster than what should be (but isn't in the majority of cases) the optimal RoF based on the range of your current encounter.

Are you not listening? The people who complain about spam aren't so much those who do it and have it fail occasionally, the people who complain about spam are those who pace and get screwed over by spam. Yes, these people often learn the error of their ways, up their RoF higher than what it logically should be based on the visual aspect of bloom, then proceed to ***** again when it screws them over in those less frequent circumstances like the one above, but that doesn't make their complaint any less valid.

Look: I have no problem with bloom as a means of limiting RoF as range increases, in fact I completely agree that it adds a layer of skill in terms of adjusting timing relative to range. In basic terms, I don't see how anyone could argue with this.

The problem comes from its implementation in Reach, which fails in two regards:

1) Bloom is way to forgiving on spamming, in that the visual indicator of the reticle will often show a very large bloom but the game still awards hits not only near the centre of the reticle, but often in the very dead centre.

This wouldn't even be so bad if it were consistent, because we could just pretty much ignore the bloom, but then you add:

2) It's random. It's not a case of 'spam and your bullets will always fall towards the edge of the reticle, meaning that increased RoF guarantees lower accuracy' or even a case of 'spam all you like because bullets always fall towards the centre regardless.' It's random. Random and forgiving to spamming.

If you pace religiously (and by pace I don't mean always let the bloom reset fully, I mean adjust your RoF relative to your range, so that you only ever fire after your reticle has reset enough to be fully covering your target, which is obviously less as the target gets closer), you'll get outshot in most situations by 'cheating' or what is often termed as 'semi spam' (not quite fully RoF, but closer to full than it is to full pacing). If you 'semi spam' you'll do fine most of the time, except for situations like the one above where the game just randomly decides to screw you over.

If it was consistent, I'd have no real problem with its implementation. Let me be clear in an ideal world, we would keep bloom, but make it consistent and logical, so that firing faster than visual reticle bloom indicates wasn't actually the best way to shoot. However, I'd also like to decrease the DMR kill time by just a tad, so whilst a more consistent bloom with a slightly shorter kill time would be ideal, no bloom at all is still better than the dice roll which bloom currently is.

EDIT: Also, Spiker rapes . It's like a fully auto PP in terms of how it tears away at shields, and doesn't have the massively long travel time of the Plas Repeater, nor does it overheat. Badass support weapon, there's a very good reason it's used as a power weapon on 1v1 maps, and often given no spare clips.

2nd EDIT: Btw, I know I was pretty strong when writing the above. Trust me, I didn't start out that way, but the following image acts as a pretty accurate time-lapse of how my attitude towards conducting this debate has progressed over the past year:

 

Yes I made up 10% I haven't done any study's or looked up the coding and done a whole bunch of math and figured it out but at the pace he was shooting at that distance was pretty good until he started spamming. I would say he would of got that kill 95% of the time if he kept the original pace and his reticle was on target.

The reason he lost is because he lost his focus and started spamming and missing.

The ideal outcome in any encounter is to win without any damage very quickly that is true but you can't always have that so you choose whats most important 1.Win, everything else is secondary. If you have to slow down your shots to have a guaranteed kill you do it and if you think you can take one more shot to guarantee you get I would recommend doing that.
Add up your risks and rewards and try to always have the optimal rewards for lowest risk.

When he was taking down his shields that RoF was good and probably recommended by most people but once his shield poped he kept that pace then sped up I think the smart thing would of been to lessen the speed to have a perfect shot then followed by a few near perfect paced shots meaning that battle would of went in his favor without any randomness from bloom.

That's because shooting faster than the default RoF adds bloom which makes it inconsistent that is the point of bloom. But when the optimum RoF encourages a level of inconsistency that is bad.
But the trade off is perfect shots at good speed, Or Slightly Inconsistent shots for Perfect speed.
This only apply's in CQC though where the DMR isn't the recommended weapon that's where the AR comes in.

The reason there is a trade off is because if the DMR dominates at all ranges weapon balance will go out the window which is what it's all about you can't expect a long range weapon to be perfect in CQC without any disadvantaged of slightly slower firing speed or slightly inconsistent shots. The closer you get the worse the DMR will get. Just like the further away you are the worse a AR gets.

Timing with consistent shots will get you the kill at medium to long ranges over a spammer. The closer you get the worse the bloom effect gets for the DMR because it is not designed for CQC it's a medium to long range weapon so using this long range weapon in close quaters you have to sacrifice your rate of fire for guaranteed hits or sacrifice your guaranteed hits to keep up your RoF.

Not necessarily the most important thing with bloom would be pushing the RoF as far as you can while keeping it accurate, You can push it futher if needed then accepting you might miss.
Without Bloom the most important is aiming and spamming in the sense everyone always shoots as fast as they can. Eliminating the need to time your shoots.

Yes I get it I only see this as a problem when its in CQC and when you get closer you should be swapping weapons for something more suited to the situation. If Halo only had 1 weapon the DMR and every game was DMR vs DMR this would be a very big problem, But I see it as, not a nerf but a hindrance to make it a medium-long range weapon and let other weapons be viable in 1v1 situations with a DMR.

Glad to hear that, You would be surprised at what people will argue.

Yea that sucks when that happens but that's the downside of having something random. But that means if your versing people that spam there shots you will win most of the time against them solely because you pace then if you have better aim you will dominate them. Without bloom you might have better aim and kill them most of the time but you wont have the advantage of bloom(or the disadvantage of the random inconsistency of bloom that will get you killed sometimes)

So would it be to your liking if the bullets always hit around the edges of reticle so you would have to pace because it would make spamming extremely unreliable but still random can't have bloom without some form of randomness.
But that's not really casual player friendly which it needs to be people new to Halo Reach can be spamming by habit from other games and they still need to hit some what reliably.
So I don't know how to have a perfect bloom system If there was a better bloom system I'm sure Bungie or 343i would of used it.
But I prefer Reachs DMR bloom to have an advantage of pacing over people who don't pace(even if I get randomly "cheated" once in a while) and I like DMR bloom to keep it on a equal playing field with all other weapons in all playlists.

You don't like Reach's DMR bloom because you feel like shouldn't die because of a random computer dice roll? That's a fair claim and the new playlist should be a fair solution to your problem with Bloom.

I use it whenever I can just because It's a rare find and brute technology is awesome. I don't play 1v1's and I tried to get kills with the spiker it's not to good with health, I'll try it as a PP next chance I get.

Idc I don't need stuff to be sugar coated, I can understand that completely, the internet just does that to people. I just hope I portrayed what I actually mean in a understandable way and doesn't come across just as blind ranting.

 

***** less. Quote harder.

 

I can't wait til I get my Bloomless DMR and tear you to shreds.

Oh, and yes, I shall "spam" it too.


343 adding a TU simply states how bad the Bloom is. Nuff said.

 

Shanon quoted so super hard.

 

I just hope they counter having no bloom with something like a lower RoF or buff other weapons accordingly. The AR could really use the slightest of buffs (I'm taking maybe 2-3 less bullets for a kill), as could the Plasma Launcher and Focus Rifle. The sniper rifle ought to be less powerful against vehicles so the Spartan Laser again becomes the best weapon against vehicles.

To be honest, weapons aside, just about every aspect of this game needs tweaking and I have faith that 343 will deliver.

 

I like using the AR as a pick-up on 1v1 and 2v2 maps. It can become quite useful in some situations.

 

I take it you haven't played Team Classic yet.

 

Suddenly I feel the need to chime in on this conversation... Haha
If they remove bloom from the dmr, it will become less of a skill weapon, to a degree, thus making AR starts a must. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for removing bloom.

 

Something else I'd like: individual loadout traits. Give each loadout base traits of its own, movement, appearence, etc. Giving jet packers a better jump height, long range motion tracker for snipers.... those are just a couple things I'd do, who knows what others would do.

 

Maybe so, But I'm pretty sure in a game where I spawn with a Bloomless DMR vs you spawning with AR/Pistol using any weapons except the DMR. The Bloomless DMR would win most of the time.

The TU isn't because the bloom is bad it's because some people want simplified DMR, Mainly for DMR vs DMR where aiming is the main factor in who wins and can be used at all ranges effectively and for those desires cannot be fulfilled at Reach at the moment.

That's the thing though I doubt they will buff all other weapons and the RoF is unlikely to be slower then waiting for the bloom to reset 100%. Reach is fine as is

It will be a DMR dominated gametype where all other weapons have tiny "niches"(area where there effective and the smart choice to use). Which is fine the more gametypes the better.
With bloom DMR is still a all around weapon but all other weapons are on par with the DMR.

I agree with all your weapon buff suggestions to for bloom and bloomless play.

A lot of people have been wanting this since the beta, I hope they add Loadout specific traits mainly for customs so TU it isn't all nerfs and removing things.

I feel awesome because bs angel released some official info in my thread > lol

 

Because it will be even more annoying! Getting shot at from the second the game starts from every enemy from the other side of the map ALL THE TIME and now giving you less time to run away because they won't have to pace their shots. Thats why.
Lets just face it, we will never agree on this.

SIDE POINT
What about the NR? They will have to remove the bloom on that too. And if they do they will have to make it equal in power to the DMR. Or else it will be grossly underpowered comparatively. Its RoF will mean nothing against the DMR.

 

There's nothing wrong with the bloom on the NR. It's perfect.

And I don't think it's going to be in the classic playlist, anyway.

 

That makes more sense that they would just remove it all together.

 

Remove what? The NR? From the classic playlist, yes. I'm pretty sure the DMR would be the substitute for the Pistol, or would be in my eyes anyway. The NR would be pointless.

As for the rest of the playlists, I don't think too much is changing, so I'm not seeing your point.

 

Yes, the NR from the classic playlist. It just seems pointless to have basically the same weapon.

 

That and it's pointless having a weapon so distant from CE that it's pointless to have it there anyway. It's my belief the Bloomless DMR= The CE pistol, anyway.