I posted this in the Hub Pub, but never got around to finishing up the design, so I've requested it be moved here so that if anyone wants to tackle this they may. I like complex maps, because they offer something for me to explore and gain an edge over less intelligent or even less knowledgeable players. I also really love objective game types. Anyways, I'm sitting there one day just twiddling my thumbs when it hits me, what if the map changes as you play it. Well more specifically the map you'd be playing in would change shape when you scored. When a score occurs, the map would open up more routes, offer more key areas of interest, or a little of both. I didn't bother sharing this because well, it's not possible... Or so I thought. I can salvage at least part of the essence of the idea through Invasion. Since Invasion is one sided, the map would have to be one sided and require copious amounts of planning. So I basically want to get a map/gametype combo for this. The game type would probably work best with capture the flag, where a team has to capture the flag three times. So, a team has to capture the flag three times to win the round. Since it's Invasion the score would have to be tweaked so that teams gained a score for each flag capture and no points awarded for completing the round. Competitive and simple. So, I was thinking about the map and how best to go about it, because they're are several ways to go about. At first, I thought that it would be cool to build three maps stacked on top of each other. After each capture, the map you were playing on, including all spawns, weapons, etc would be deleted and you would fall to your death to spawn inside the next stage, so to speak. That would be very confusing to players, to have to learn a new map every four minutes. It'd be complicated to implement and costly to build three maps. It'd probably just plain suck. Well, I thought about how to go about it for another five seconds and I was thinking that it might be better to build one map, but block off certain areas and subsequently open them up after each capture. I think this would be easier on the budget and on the player. It's the design part that's going to be a real killer. Because the players has to be familiar with the map, the flag stand and capture points have to remain in the same area on the map. The map can't just go up and open certain parts of the map will nilly either. Each area that opens up has to have a purpose to the whole of the map itself, otherwise it would just be a novelty. Each area has to be intuitive to the design and the player. I also, have to consider how I want the difficulty of the map to progress. Should it be more difficult or easy for the attackers after each capture. At this point, I'm going to say that a capture = round. So should the first round be a 50% of capturing the flag and it get harder and then easier? This is what I think I need help with the most is determing what the difficulty of each stage of the map should be. I've got a couple ideas on how to make each stage different. I could open up tunnels or whole sections of the map I could take a floor and drop it lower, or remove it entirely remove it for a death trap. I could block off a lift or tele Possibly cover up a power item...but that might be tacky. I think there's a lot of potential with something like this. I'm already drawing out ideas. Once I get something concrete I'm going to sketch it up. What are your thoughts?
I think this is a great idea. I've always thought about how cool it would be to have an interchangeable map, but never thought I'd be possible not to mention competitively playable. If you can pull this off and make it work I'll bow to you.
As far as designing a map goes, I don't feel comfortable designing something with vehicles or on the scale of last resort. I would design it to the scale of something like Reflection, but won't be taking much inspiration from it. Just to give you an idea of where I'm headed with it. I was thinking of an indoor one sided symm. Bungie.net : Invasion + Forge! : 9/16/2010 9:09 AM PDT I was skimming that just to be sure that objects can be labeled as INV_GATE and dissappear after a "round". Also, something I noted when reading the guide was that objects labeled as INV_VEHICLE get a waypoint at the start of each "round". So, that could be used for the power weapons on the map instead. That way people know where they are each time the map changes. This would be useful in case, I decide the first stages rocket spawn will turn into a death pit and I want rockets to appear somewhere else. Although, that may not be the best idea to move the power weapons around. It'd make it difficult for players to learn the map. EDIT: Also, restricted areas could be marked by die according to the stage the area opens up at. This would show players that the area becomes available later in the game and they learn that they're are other areas in the map in the beginning stages. So, you'd see a wall with a blocked off doorway with a die phased into it showing two dots to represent that the area becomes available in stage 2 of the round.
Very nice idea. You could maybe use some **** Zombie maps for design inspiration since they're maps that can open up. Love the idea of waypoints over power weapons, and dice over round doors. Little touches like that are what help cement the overall idea as a fully invested feature and not just a gimmick. As well as opening stuff up, don't forget that you can block stuff too. Like at the beginning there could be a tunnel running down the centre of the map, and it's a simple and fast way to score. After the first point the map could open up some more, providing alternate routes, but at the same time block the tunnel so that they can't take the shortcut through the centre to score so easily anymore. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
I had a very similar idea to this by creating an invasion map that could be seperated into 3 different gametype influenced maps like CTF in one part, Slayer in another Part, territories in the last part. The only thing I dislike about this is the whole dying to progress to the next round. No players should have to just die to continue with the game and if they've just collected a power weapon, it's now lost, and so is there sprees
A part of me really wants to make this a relic inspired asym, for vehicle use. It would allow me to have garages on the map, where after a stage they would open up so that players could access vehicles. They would have to be countered by opening up a laser tower, let's say. @Buddha, how exactly would I "block" off certain routes. From my understanding objects can only be taken away, so once an area opens up it stays. I don't know how you could add walls. Death Pits are my solution to "walling" off areas of the map, but the open LoS would remain.
I like the idea of making it a BTB ish map. A smaller map based on invasion could be much more awkward. The doorways being blocked off until the next capture occurs is a great idea. The doorways will let players know the area can be accessed, just not at that moment, and once they see it's accessible, they'll begin understanding the mechanics of the map. As for the garage, I think it should have several "stages", with the final stage allowing the use of a falcon and potentially a wraith for the elites. I like the idea of this, I'd like to build something to fit the gametype you have planned as well actually. I have something envisioned similar to Standoff, but a bit larger. I've been wanting to play around with an invasion map, and this sounds awesome.
Well it's not so much I want people playing invasion, I would like them to be playing a competitive 4v4 one flag game. Now a BTB-ish map would be cool, but you're going to be limited with how much you could really change the map, since a lot of the budget will be used for building the core of the map. I'm not saying it isn't possible, it's just not what I what I am envisioning. Invasion maps in MM already have separate stages as the game progresses and access to armories and vehicle bays progresses as well, so you wouldn't quite need a garage. Now if you were thinking of something like Hemorrhage where the vehicles are enclosed in side garages and they open up as the game progresses then they has a possibility of working. Although, a first round, all infantry battle on Hemorrhage would be pretty boring. (It'd be neat though to have recreate Halo 2's banshee bay and have it open up later in the game.) So, you'd have to change your scaling a bit to suit infantry play for 6v6 to 8v8 while still allowing for vehicle play. That's a design challenge in and of itself and probably a fun one. I'd suggest doing something like Headlong. Some good vertical building to building combat but still has great vehicle combat space.
My understanding is that if you label something as INV_WEAPON it will appear at a given phase. This object would be, for example, the wall which blocks off a route.
If someone would like to test that out for me to confirm, it would radically change how I approach the design. Pretty much want to confirm INV_GATE, that objects will disappear after the round they are set on. Want to confirm the waypoint over objects set to INV_VEHICLE Want to confirm objects that will spawn in if they are set to INV_WEAPON One thing to keep in mind is that objects set to INV_WEAPON will spawn about a second in the next stage, so could see some potentially awkward deaths, but I would most likely use this for something like a bridge or staircase. Like you walk up to a platform to a connecting bridge, but in one round it would lead straight out, but in the next it would be removed and another bridge would take it's place leading off somewhere else. I gotta be careful though, each stage of the map has to be intuitive and I think my imagination could take the best of me and I could really start mindfucking people.
Yeah I was of the belief that the sequence you set an INV_ tagged object was the phase they would appear in. So setting something for round 2 would mean that you won't see it in round 1 or round 3. I dunno how you would, say, get something to not appear in round 1 but then remain for round 2 and 3 though.
I wouldn't give it an object property, I would leave it as is. The trickier part would be having something appear in round 2 and remain for round 3. I think the structure would essentially just have to be replicated for both rounds.
Yeah that's the only thing I could think of as a solution as well. I've started one of the base structures for my 3 flag map, although it's likely to develop slowly, I'm working on a few other projects at the moment. I think with the design I have in mind, I might build two version, one with the 3 flag design, and another for standard BTB. We'll see how my budget holds up.
I could also leave the object in and cover it up, then remove the item covering it. This could save object resources depending on how it's done. I do want to ask DtL, if I could have the courtesy of introducing the idea once my design is finished. I've done several rough sketches, and I'm currently drawing it 1 to 1 ration. Then I'll transfer it to sketch-up in rough form, then do another sketch-up build using forge pieces. It should be less than a week.
Update, this is a rough overview of the layout so far. I'm just going through and adjusting heights properly.
Oh absolutely. I don't think mine would be finished anytime soon either way. Hopefully the idea for 3 flag catches on and becomes a thing here at FH, sort of like conquest was for Halo 3.
This is definately interesting. I tried to do something similar with infection on Safe Havens once, but do to its restrictions, it didn't work. This is definitely a good idea though. Keep me posted.