The 'Stevo Spawning Method'

You guys need to stop picking at this. The method works, I've played nearly all his maps and the spawns system in 99% of them work very well, and the 1% is always easily fixed after the testing.

He posted the guide to his method as an "as is" method on spawning & you may be able to discredit the spawning system with spawn theory, but at the end of the day, it's just theory. To my knowledge, Bungie has only ever released information on anti-spawn areas and never released in-depth info on how the system works. Any changes you suggest making most likely will break the system.

As I said, it works. Unless your posting about fixes for certain situations, there is really nod need to post about why you THINK (theory) this doesn't work.

 

Would that be a yes or a no? I know spawnpoints do that already, but their areas are small and have a minimal vertical area from what I've heard which could be fixed with respawn zones if that answer is yes. Either way, I'd love to hear that several hours worth of theories on spawning, seriously. Or does that have to wait for Failure 101?

 

pyro, that has to wait until I get bored enough

Lets its closer to a yes than no, but its somewhere in the middle realistically.

 

I only speak for myself here, but I'm not "picking" at anything. The reason I ask a question is because a) what he describes with relation to hard spawn zones contradicts my own experiences, as well as information I've heard from Bungie; and b) it seems like every time I hear someone explain the Halo spawn system, the information is at least slightly different and contradictory when compared to what I've been told before. It gets a little confusing. So any time I get a chance to ask someone questions about their personal theory of how the system works, I definitely will.

 

What I have found is that when people write what they believe is how the spawn system works based upon their test results, they are always wrong. I have yet to come across an exception here.

It has been my experience thus far that the spawn system works exactly as JonnyOThan's article states. It is when I reduced it to the simplicity that his article describes that I began to see it work predictably. When people read more into his article than he states, then they begin to perform tests with preconceived ideas on how the system works and their results begin to lead to conclusions that JonnyOThan was incorrect.

For example, he states that strong + weak > strong, and people think that means 2 + 1 > 2. They don't think that he could have meant 10000 + 1 > 10000. They are reading more into what he actually said, by assuming that strong is twice the weight of a weak. Thus the problems arise from test results that they did not expect to see.

When you say he revised, I don't believe you can mean he "changed" what he said. He continues to state what his original article said. He is clarifying and answering questions.

What is this WorkPlace and TOOLBOX? If they are private, how can we get access to their information?

I cannot even begin to start on this point. I have spent weeks in utter confusion trying to understand why zones did not communicate with each other or were aware of an enemy or teammate "just outside" their border, or what was taking place somewhere else within the zone, and this from two "experts", clear pillars in the community by many standards. It turns out they had no clue - absolutely no clue - what they were talking about.

I cannot even begin to stress how important it is NEVER to say ANYTHING, unless you can cite bungie and you can consistently replicate using different test models without fail.

I knew those "experts" were wrong, but I refused to say so, because I didn't know for sure I was right. Then JonnyOThan spoke, and all was good again.

Everything he said has proven 100% correct. It makes the spawn system perfectly predictable. I have no troubles any longer understanding how to design the spawning for any map.

Once you get past what you do know and what you do not know, and you don't assume anything, you are going to find it very easy.



@Stevo, I would be more than happy to get onto forge with you to see what is wrong with your spawning.

 

Link?

 

Edit: I will send this in a PM...

 

darn, I was actually learning alot from these arguments
however: i am going to have to say this: I really hope we end up
with two working spawn systems, or that you two can come up with an uber system

 

Wow u really know the spawning system well. I Never really bothered to overlap the respawn influencers i guess i was under the impression that stacking them didnt do anything i thought a weak + a weak = a weak.

 

I think I just took your spawn system to another level Stevo, I have my entire map covered in respawn areas... mind you there aren't any strongs on it, just weaks. I think I'm going to make a thread for it... not sure if I should though since it's based off yours.

EDIT: I'll Pm you a diagram for reference, don't want to make this a discussion about it.

 

I know what is wrong with your map...

Stevo, you said,

Now if people wish to believe you just because you post here rather than do their homework and verify these claims, that is their choice. But I chose to create simple tests to prove to you that they are incorrect.

See my file share at b.net and look at the film clips and the maps:

TEST.STRONGZONE2/TEST.STRONGZONES2A
This shows that 4 enemies immediately adjacent to the spawn point, along with 10 anti zones and several active death influencers are not enough to overcome a strong zone. The film clip opens with four blue players and a red play within a circular zone that is covered with 10 anti zones, and the rectangular stretch (10x84) with a red strong zone. Blue player jumps onto block, kills red player, then proceeds to obstruct the red player respawn point only to demonstrate to you that there is a respawn point outside the strong zone that is available for the red player to spawn at when the strong zone is overcome.

He then kills the red player, jumps down, and kills the red player repeatedly, demonstrating that the red player will have no choice but to respawn in the strong zone, despite 4 enemies, 10 anti zones, and several death influencers.

Why? Because the strong zone is far stronger than a weak zone. My estimates place it over 100x stronger than a weak zone. But I cannot say for certain just how far off I am with that estimate.

So this simple test shows that the strong zone weight estimate you gave is far off, and that 4 enemies do not lower the strong zone to 0 weight. If what you said were true, the red player would easily and consistently spawned out of the respawn zone, as the weight at the spawn point would be well below 0.

TEST.STRONGZONE2/TEST.STRONGZONES2D
This film clip used the same map and shows that a single suicide is able to overcome 10 stacked anti zones. The point of this clip is to show that anti zones cannot be used to prevent a player from spawning in an enemy base.


TEST.TALKINGZONES/TEST.TALKINGZONES3B

This test shows a blue player killing a red player in one zone, and the red player spawning in that same zone, rather than the "other" zone. This shows that proximity of enemy and the death influencer were weighing heavily on the spawn point in the other zone, and that what and who was in the first zone had no impact on the weight that the zone gave to its spawn point.

Conclusion
If people want to design with your claims in mind, then they certainly can. But when things don't go right for them, following your claims will lead them to look in the wrong places for the solution. If your model (not theory) were accurate, it would have predicted what my tests would have resulted in. My tests simply prove your model incorrect.

I want you and everyone else to see the root of your problem in creating this model was that you rely on empirical evidence as the source of defining systematic behavior. If I did that at my job, I would be laughed out by my peers. It is entirely the wrong methodology to use.

The proper methodology is to go to the authoritative source (Bungie, in this case, JonnyOThan) and find out how it works (as much as you can), then use empirical evidence ONLY to prove the source wrong.

Empirical evidence CAN NEVER be used to define systematic behavior!

On the other hand, if people have trouble with JonnyOThan, then they can disregard what he says, despite the fact that his model is accurate and can explain what you see. His model told me that my tests would unfold the way that they did. That the strong zone was way too strong to overcome by the factors you point to, and that the zones do not react to what and who is in them (he emphatically stated this).

For your first claim, you told me that you had three strong zones. One with an enemy, one with a death, and the third was empty of enemies and deaths. You said that it was the empty zone that the player spawned in. This was the basis for saying that a zone is greatly reduced in effectiveness when an enemy or a death is present in it, which is the basis of your model.

However, from bungie, the zones do not react to what or who is in them. I knew this, not because of my tests, but because JonnyOThan said so. From my point of view, it is very simple - death and enemy proximities weighted down the spawn points in the area of the first two zones, leaving the empty zone with the highest weights. That is what my second film clip shows - that proximity, not zone, is the factor for reducing weights.

Now for Reflect. I know what is wrong with your spawn zones. I know why the strong zones don't act strong at all. It is due to a bug in the engine. I have put a post on Forge World to bring this to JonnyOThan's attention for him to confirm the bug for us and give us more information. I confirmed this was the case on your map, then I proceeded to fix it to prove that it could be fixed.

I removed every zone and then started over. The strong zones act as strong zones again. I recommend that you use only three strong zones and no more than 4 weak and 4 anti zones on your map. Apply the strong zones first!

Also, for your information, I have two posts (see 1/26 and later) with JonnyOThan that his article on spawn zones has two errors in it. He confirmed one, and I am pressing for more details. I just posted the second the other day.

I hope this helps.

 

Oh god, this makes my brain hurt. Im not very mathmatically orientated :/ Oh well, Im sure Ill decipher it eventually... its a nice guide and I assume itll make a great basis for people to build on, including myself

 

I have pretty much come to this conclusion as well. I have 3 maps that I've made over the last few weeks that I would like to test more but from the few games I've played on them I've never had any real game breaking spawn issues (i.e. spawning in the wrong base) and I keep it very simple. Two respawn zones for each team (or more, but they are always basic respawn zones) at their base and then I set up respawn zones for the objective games (flag/bomb away, etc) and I've never had any problems.

Again, I've only played a handful of games on the maps I've been working on so I would like to test them a heck of a lot more before I ever post them.

Edit: Just read some more posts and if this post falls under "theory" my apologies.

 

Just read this thread, and I will definately use some of the things written here when setting up spawns in my next map. Spawning is my least favorite part of building a map so thanks for taking the time Stevo. (;