I've been thinking about this a lot and what I've concluded is that the main thing they need to do with armor abilities is let you use them less often. And I mean all of them. Going into Reach, I thought they were going to be pretty much equivalent to equipment in Halo 3, except that you just get one specific thing to use and you get to use it repeatedly without going around picking more of them up. That is basically correct, of course, but the impact on the game has been too great. Equipment use was somewhat uncommon in 3, affecting only the occasional conflict and certainly not all of them; now in Reach, there are a lot of battles with multiple participants where every single player is using armor abilities. You'll have two guys in the middle armor locked, a guy evading or sprinting in from far away to help out, a guy hovering in the air above with his jet pack, and a couple more guys skulking on the fringes with camo, waiting for a cheap clean-up kill. The problem with this to me is that so many of the abilities slow the game down. I don't want to get into the debate over which abilities are cheap or overpowered, but there's no denying that armor lock and (to a lesser extent) the bubble shield do nothing but stall the action, and guys with camo do the same by crouch-walking around so they don't get spotted. Ultimately instead of fast-paced action, a lot of the battles feel like you're in molasses - constantly waiting for someone's armor ability to wear off. The easiest solution I can see would be to just take away half or more of the usage of the AAs. Just make them take at least twice as long to recharge, and watch the game improve. I don't think it matters as much for sprint and evade (those could maybe be increased to just 150% charge time) but for all the others it would be a marked improvement.
I think this would be remedied with the removal of load-outs. I think that the armor abilities would be better suited as pick-ups on the map rather than having players pick whichever ability they wanted, and then always have that ability. If they were placed on the map, they would play a role in the match, but their use wouldn't be constant.
Dude, why do you think I always play MLG settings? Chuck the abilities that slow the game down, keep the ones that augment it. Sprint, Evade and Jetpack are the only ones worth a damn. Evade is more or less a power ability depending on the map, and jetpacks are (for the most part) situational. And people might cry that Sprint slows the game, but in reality, it doesn't. Oh, some one's spriting away to live? I haz sprinz too! *Chases and kills*.
Another thread complaining about armor abilities? It would be nice if we could keep all these rants about armor abilities into one thread... On topic, on big maps... I agree that armor abilities like bubble shield, armor lock, and cloaking slow down game play, especially with something like AR starts. On CQC/CQB maps however, I disagree. I've said it in another thread, slayer loadouts should only include Sprint, Evade, and Jetpack. Team objective game types should include all loadouts for more strategic games.
Well I'm not trying to complain or rant - I'm proposing a solution. I also wanted to keep this discussion separate from the whole "armor lock is too powerful!" conversation, since I think that's separate. Hokets - I don't hate that idea, but the problem is that anyone who picks one up suddenly has a HUGE leg up on everybody else. If you make them exclusively pick-ups, I think you almost have to make them less powerful as well - or put down a lot of pick-ups, which kind of negates the whole idea. Or you could have them be limited use - like three uses and then it goes away or something. But that's so different from the shipped version of Reach that I think the chances of Bungie doing it are non-existent. Schnitzel - I understand what you're saying about MLG, but I don't like the combined effect of their settings too much. MLG is increasingly playing a different game from everybody else. I'm sure they'd say the same (and probably be proud of it), but I'm trying to play Halo: Reach, not Halo: CE on the Reach engine. Between the different starting weapons, adjusted speed and jump height, lack of motion trackers, disabled and differently used armor abilities - they just take it all too far for my liking. And bear in mind, I started out as pretty much a prototype MLG player. Even before I knew what MLG was, I was hosting LAN parties with trackers turned off and pistol starts. But now I'm trying to enjoy the experience Bungie intended with the game, and I don't think MLG is too interested in that any more. ...Anyway that's an entirely separate discussion, didn't mean to derail my own thread.
Posting a thread of this type in this forum, where absolutely nothing can be done about it, is ranting. Posting a thread like this in Bungie's Optimatch forum, where something like this can have something done about it, is looking for a solution.
By your logic, almost any comment in the entire "Halo: Reach Discussion" forum is "ranting." It's not ranting. I want to talk to fellow Halo players about a problem that many of us feel is indeed a problem, and offer a possible solution to see what others think. As for Bungie's Optimatch forum - or any other Bungie forum - the notion that "something" might be done in response to a post there strikes me as a bit naive, if not outright comical. Those forums move at a mile a second, with even popular posts disappearing off the front page in mere minutes; and Bungie themselves respond to a fraction of a percent of the posts on the forum. Posting there in hopes of getting "something done" is akin to posting a critique of YouTube in the comments thread of any random video. And if you're looking for discussion you can forget that too, since 80% of the comments are trolling, flaming, or nonsense apparently written by ten year olds. No, I'd much rather post here, thanks. If people think the idea is good, I wouldn't have a problem e-mailing Bungie and trying to get their attention that way.
what a surprise another bitching thread. I think they're all fine. Rather than complaining about how they should be, maybe you should try some different techniques in play. Learning to work around what annoys you rather than wishing it away works well from my experience. The idea of having them on the map like weapons that need to be picked up sounds good, but how much more annoying would armor lock be when one guy picked it up and goes on a killing frenzy? If everyone can pick it, its kind of an equalizer. That being said, I'll admit that reach is a lot of fun with no abilities (though i have fun with them anyway). I played 8v8 that way and it felt classic
This is the last time I'm going to address this: I'm not bitching. I understand your confusion, because there's a ton of bitching on this forum and (much more so) on the Bungie forum. But if you re-read the first post you'll see that I am completely reasonable in stating my opinions. I'm not flaming Bungie or whining about the game, which I quite enjoy and play all the time. I just think it would play better with one quick adjustment, and I suggested what I think that should be. Please confine your comments to that subject and don't turn this into another meta-argument about whining, bitching, ranting, etc. I have no interest in it. Thanks in advance.
What a surprise, another troll... There is no learning to "play around" some abilities though. I'm not going to get into the AL debate here, but that is one ability that is much more difficult to play around than any other. There is a learning curve to being able to deal with it, but even then your still at a disadvantage unless your team implements it as well. Easiest solution, which we already do often mega, is to just play customs. And teabag guys like the one above when the AL in MM.
I'll admit thats true. I'm sorry, I just get annoyed with all the "this is how the game should be" threads you did state your case clearly I'm going to reiterate, I think a lot of people's problems with AAs is it makes the game a lot more hectic, less predictable. Unless you see your opponent from behind or see him use it, you don't know what AA he has (jet pack the exception). Perfect timing and skill can be trounced by chance encounters or dumb luck on the other team/players part. I can see why some people would want AAs nerfed, I just don't believe its going to happen. They playtest the **** out of a game before they ship it. AAs are the way they are, and I'd bet my xbox that it doesn't get changed. So I suppose thats why I find these threads annoying, its like wishing for gills or for the sky to be purple. its not gonna happen, no matter how many threads are posted about it forgive my annoyance. since day one, I guess I've been the one guy here that was completely satisfied with reach (with the exception of some of the custom game options)
Alrighty. This has been stated many many times. And this is the thing. This isnt Halo 3. You want to play Halo 3 as far as I can see from your OP. You mention they have too big of an impact on the gameplay. The thing is dude, they dont impact the gameplay, they are one of the main mechanics of the gameplay. Saying you think they should nerf EVERY AA is like saying they need to nerf every gun. Its pointless. Theres nothing wrong with the armor abilities, people just want Reach to be so much like Halo 3. This thread, and the thousands of similar threads on Bungie.net make me think the only reason people see problems with this gameplay is because they were under the impression Reach was Halo 3 with better Graphics. It isnt. Saying you dont like Armor Abilities is basically saying you dont like the gameplay. Armor abilities are one of the major gameplay mechanics in Reach. They are everywhere, from Campaign to FF to MP. They are always there in MM and Campaign and cant be removed, so theres only one thing to do, and you may think Im a tool for saying it but: Get used to it, or stop playing. Or just play while not liking it. Because nerfing something that doesnt need to be nerfed is stupid, because EVERY AA has a weakness.
Why does every discussion of any negative aspect of a game always come down to "get used to it or stop playing?" I mean - this is still a discussion forum, isn't it? Is it unreasonable to talk about things we think might improve the game? And beyond that, Bungie does patch and adjust their games; is it unreasonable to think they might adjust this aspect of gameplay? Back to topic. I don't want Reach to play like Halo 3. I like the basic concept of armor abilities just fine. As I already stated in my MLG comment, I want Reach to be itself and not a warped imitation of a previous Halo game. That said, however, I don't think Reach (or any Halo game, or any game period) is beyond criticism, or unimprovable. Halo: CE would have been more fun if the grenades and rockets had been less powerful. Halo 2 would have been more fun if the plasma pistol had been less effective. I could go on. And not only that, but Halo 2 and 3 were both improved after release by gameplay patches - the melee issues in Halo 2; grenade power in Halo 2 and 3 both; etc. etc. My take on it is that I like the idea and the fundamental mechanics of armor abilities, but I dislike anything that mostly causes battles to be stagnant and protracted. There was a hint of this in Halo 3 with regenerators and bubble shields, which both encouraged players to stand in one place and made them temporarily close to invulnerable. However, that didn't affect the game too much because those players could still often use that advantage to kill their enemy, which kept the game moving along; and also the regen and shield pickups were only in certain places, and only good for one use. Moving into Reach - anyone in armor lock is unkillable AND can't kill anyone else for however long they are in it. From any angle, that slows gameplay. Camo (as well as the camo power-up) now actively encourages players to crouch-walk or stand still. The bubble shield AA works basically like the bubble equipment in Halo 3, except it's not single-use. All of these things make battles take longer, and create dead space in the game where the players aren't interacting with each other. A little of that is fine. A lot of it drags the game down. I don't have a problem enjoying Reach, but if I was going to make a perfect version of the game (at least for me), I'd reduce the amount of times that the game was allowed to slow down like that. And the simplest method without greatly changing the game is just to increase how long every AA takes to recharge. That is my argument. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Additionally, another thought occurred to me. I wonder why Bungie concentrated most of the armor abilities on defense and movement? Sprint, evade, and jetpack are about 50/50 in being used as ways to get around better or faster, and ways to escape death. Armor lock, bubble shield, and camo are mostly used defensively (camo theoretically aids infiltration/offense, but not if you have to move so slowly to not be seen). It might have been good for the game if some of the options were more purely offensive - additional grenade slots or an extra grenade type, for instance. I don't know what all might be appropriate (and it's a balancing headache undoubtedly!), but more offense in the mix might help accelerate the game, whereas defensive abilities only serve to slow it down - and if they were balanced more players might choose the boost to their offense instead. Food for thought, perhaps. I don't think it means anything in the context of Reach, because there's no way they would add new armor abilities now.
OMG! So it slows the game for 5 seconds and you're like "OMG!!!!!! I'm losin five seconds of my precious life! This match is only 12 minutes! WE ONLY HAVE 720 SECONDS! I WANNA PLAY!" btw I didn't read the whole thread. But really All armour (yes. I live in canada and we spell it this way up north) abilities must be used strategically. For armour lock its not obvious but think of it. More people will be waiting just there so its kinda useless there. The MOST strategic (and and will actually work) uses for it would be to use it when team mates are around. They'll see you and back you up as you come out. Another is (obviously) to use it before getting splattered. Free kill. Use this on hemmorhage. For Camo it only works if you crouch walk. Most effective when sniping or in CQB with a close range weapon. Simple. In normal situations on open fields its useless. Why? Well when you shoot EVERYBODY will see it and they'll rush you. The bubble shield doesn't appear in games where kills are the objective. PLUS YOU CAN WALK through it. In the gametypes where it appears (CTF, firefight, Stockpile) you can use it to boost the defenders. This is OP sometimes if the defenders have shotties but oh well. Boost in with a ghost. I do that on CTF and its hilarious when I get triple kills and overkills. But if you're still complaing here are easy counters. Armour lock. See the sparks/lightning? Throw a plasma under him. Free kill. Camo. Good with geometry? Estimate the center of the circle of red dots and head in there with a mid-close range weapon Drop Shield. Run in there with a Hammer yelling leeroy jenkins and you may or may not get kills. But a more praticle and less funny way you want? Okay. Boost in with a ghost. Very unlikely that they'll use armour lock in conjunction with the bubble shield. On another note this guy has a point here. Read this. Good thoughts More offensive abilities? I agree Here are balanced ones that I can think of. Grenadier Can hold 1 more grenade of each type Pockets Can hold 25% more ammo for each of your guns Ninja Jump slightly higher. Increased speed crouch walking. No sound from walking. Boxer Melee damage will bleed through shields. 10% more damage dealt through melee.
Those are more perks than AA's. AA's are activated and have a timer... perks are always active and you have no control over when you use them. Even though Bungie thried to implement abilities to vary gameplay, I don't believe that they would go so far as to add omnipresent perks to the game.
if these were available most players would choose them rather than movement, because the game would be way unbalanced if they didn't. so it would basically kill all the defense/movement AAs anyway. There's also the fact that some of the AAs are based off of old equipment, and none of those had offensive capability. (camo=invis+radar jammer, drop shield=sheild regen+bubble shield, jet pack=grav lift backpack, armor lock drains shields but doesn't really correlate like the others) the above person mentioned they'd be more like perks that are always active, but even then, the game would just be too COD-MW2 like. we don't want that. and I think we've strayed off topic a bit
It has taken me a while to get used to Reach's new gameplay. I'm only just used to it. When I first started playing Reach I played the game as if it were Halo 3. I was getting annihilated left, right and centre. In Halo 3 I utilised bumper jumper to adapt to H3's style of jump strafing gameplay. In HR if you jump around to much, you stand out and become an easy kill. My solution to your problem is to not get reduce the amount of AA's, but rather Bungie needs to implement Classic Slayer into Matchmaking. If you don't know Classic Slayer is Slayer without AA's.
It is entertaining to read about a call for more offensive abilities from armor. I mean, it's armor. You know? The UNSC gave you guns for a reason. If a jet pack gets you into a good spot for the last head shot, or sprinting up to assassinate your foe, or rolling up to a human to zombify him, then great. That's using a defensive ability to your combat advantage. It's the same for those players who armor lock, survive, and live to kill their enemy, or the players who throw down bubble shield so they gain health enough to emerge and kill their original attacker. Granted, those are mostly 1 v 1 scenarios. But you get the point: guns are for killing people, armor abilities are for living long enough to kill people. And I am also surprised no one has really mentioned hologram. To me, hologram is probably the most "offensive" AA. The sole purpose of it is to fool the enemy, which can cause him to make a big tactical mistake up front: not shooting at you. I agree with other people here, I hope AA arguments go away. I understand people don't like them. It sucks when an entire team of jet packers takes you down like children on Boardwalk. It sucks when every gorram elite on the map is using armor lock and spraying pink needles at your face. But there are gametypes that acknowledge these preferences, and you have your vote. And the ability to get massively favorable ratios of players in a party to kick everyone's ass. So go do that, and just have fun. Slamm
I understand your point, but I'm talking about what's best for gameplay, not what is strictly the most logical. I mean, why did the scorpion in Halo: CE have an open canopy so you could one-shot the driver with a sniper rifle? It's not even slightly realistic - it was for gameplay reasons. The same sort of design decisions are made in every Halo game. Anyway, I'm surprised this didn't occur to me before but one obvious possibility - why is there no EMP/power drain armor ability? Don't know how it would work (probably a small radius burst around the player, or they could have it fire something out that goes off after a second - but that would be REALLY powerful). But I'm sure a lot of people would take that option and it would speed up rather than bog down the game. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Clearly. I don't think armor abilities are a game-killer. Far from it - I've played and enjoyed quite a bit of Reach. I was just playing last night! Still though, I don't like dead spots in the action. Someone occasionally going into armor lock is not that big of a deal, what bugs me is when lots of people are using that or camo and by the end of the game you have the feeling that you spend a combined 1-2 minutes waiting on people's armor lock to end, or searching for someone invisible who was crouch-walking. It's just not fun in the same way that regular combat is. This is maybe a separate topic, but I'm also not crazy about what they did to camo, either the AA or the power-up. Why make a change that specifically encourages camping and lack of movement? The camo power-up is now borderline useless (I don't even put it on my forged maps), and I think I'd prefer the armor ability if it had pre-Reach-style camo that just lasted less time and took longer to charge. (That said, I do really dig the new muted/underwater sound effect. That's pretty slick.)
Armour abilities have the pro's and con's, just like every other feature in the game. There is no such thing as perfection. I'll say it again, leave the AA's as they are and add Classic Slayer into Matchmaking. That way both parties are getting what they desire.