Support your fellow forgers

I'm with you on this El,
and I would add to it, but I think you've covered it all.

Actually, I'm in the testers guild, I just never want to try to get into tests or starts. And sure you could call me a lazy mofo because I am, but I kind of get confused with the how to organize and get testers. /dead

 

I here what you are saying and agree, I came on here first to download maps, so I'm always around looking for new ideas, I try to comment and help out ... although some have been little short but after some guidance I am aware of how to comment, i.e saying more than nice map or i'm going to download. I haven't seen the benefit of helping others to help yourself but i'm sure it will come, It would be nice if say in the people who comment negitivly to maybe balance things out e.g say something good then something bad so the map builder doesn't just see a load of negetivity, and give up, it is hard for people starting out, and then when the wolves come it puts them off publishing more.

 

I totally agree on this! my main pet hate is that other maps generally race and Aesthetic maps excluding a few don't get the credit they some time deserve! this i feel includes one of my own! i feel more known forges or forgers whom have created a good map previously still get better feedback for a worse map than the one before, like you said:
"but the most active and veteran people tend to have an insular community going on where they pay far more attention to each others' creations than the rest of the submissions."

Although i can't really complain as my only posted map has done me justice and has reached to some of their high standards in the wayof views but not so much downloads! I also still a little phased on how they pick a map to feature! and it seems like other than xSoGx Grims maps which deserve such a thing as a feature, others get shunned!

I personally think that they should split this up and have for every section, or every map type its own title: Say the best competitive map, the best MLG map, the best Casual map, the best Race map, the best Mini Game mao and lastly the best Aesthetic map. And then have an overall featured map out of the finallist of each map type. Giving you a fairer look on other maps!

Yes this method may take a little more time but then you may find it better and have more variaty to choose from.

 

This is my main problem. I watch the 4chub chatbucks and notice a bit of clique-based activity. I only managed to hop in a Tester's Guild match last night because I joined in with someone that eventually got invited, after we dicked around racing some. Granted, I was more interested in looking around the tested maps and was called useless for it once, since I like to take in the aesthetics the first time I set foot on a map.


I give feedback on maps I find most visually pleasing, so I'm a bit guilty of lacking support since my tastes tend to differ. Outside of the tester's match last night, I've only managed to help test 3 people's maps... and only one of them uses Forgehub. I probably should have a bit more under my belt, having been here a little over a month. However, I'm still a little bitter. I put hefty effort into my first map and the thread containing it. I didn't get so much as one serious critique. I got a one-liner about a very minor aspect of my map. No tips on improvements or what I could have done here and there to improve. What embitters me more is that I see people reply to other people's first map posts with "It's a good first map, you should try this and that." when, in my opinion, the map is hideous or simply redundant and not unique. Of course, I don't post that in the thread because it's not right to berate. To go along with this, I posted a map preview to my newer work, Civility, and it's remained a near pointless chat between myself and one poster (even with my trying to bring people's attention to it, no less), despite my asking the 'community' general questions directly in the thread. Granted, this was only up for less than a day now but I admittedly brought attention to it a number of times in the lolbox and other forums I frequent.

Now, this is no surprise, really. I've been on these sorts of forums longer than I care to admit. Unless a poster is around from the forum infancy, they do something to appeal to a specific large mass, is just a plain old 'loud' personality, or they instantly display an absurd amount of talent, they will go unnoticed. It's very rare that I observe communities that truly embrace the concept of growth. It's not something easily, done by nature. Growth takes an actual effort and isn't something that happens passively, in social terms.

I consider joining the TG once in a while but, as silly and immature as this may sound to some, I won't support people that aren't willing to support me. I think it's actually a rather simple concept. To some, it may sound like it contradicts what I said earlier. It doesn't, however. As part of growth, a social group needs to support the members within. One cannot expect others to learn from mistakes they don't realize they've made. Even reading opinions people post elsewhere isn't completely helpful. If a person doesn't equate what they've read to something they've done properly, they won't see it as something that should be addressed in their own work. Meaning, sometimes we need to be direct and not point each other around or lay breadcrumbs and ciphers for others to follow or decrypt.

 

I think everyone should help others without thinking reward. Cause if you help someone, he might just help someone else. It's like training to teacher. You teach someone so he can teach someone else. Sometimes they don't become teachers like you, but you keep teaching others and someone will become teacher. Eventually, everyone will help each other.

 

I'm glad some one finally came out and addressed this issue. Its been a bit of a thorn in my side in general as I also put a lot of work into my maps but get very little feedback on them. I also strive to be active and check out as many other maps posted here as possible and give whatever feed back I can. Its a matter of good community participation.
As of late I've started paying attention to post counts of other people who are presenting their maps. If they have a low post count, I check their history and see if they're posts are spread through out the community or centered on their thread. If said person's posts are all in their own thread, I don't give their map the time of day. Period. If you want the community to support you, support the community.
And as far as the clicks go... I think it's bull. Veterans need to get off their high horses and quit dismissing maps made by people they don't recognize. It's time people started embracing the WHOLE community instead of sitting around circle j****ing each other.

/rant.

 

tl;dr












I kid. Nonetheless, this is an amazing thread that basically embodies everything I was always too lazy to say. I'm glad you're finally becoming more active Megapwn, because with threads like this we might finally be able to get to the heart of Forgehub's problems.

More or less everything you've said so far is completely true, even though few people outside of those affected will care. The thing that probably struck me the most was what you said about how no one's even taking the time to comment on these incredibly underrated maps. As a guy who's been here a decently long time, I find this disgusting. I'm sure most of us can think back to a time when everyone would at least get some feedback on their maps.

I'm betting we can probably put all of Forgehub's problems into three basic categories:

1) No one cares enough to take the time and comment on other's maps, but when they post their map they simply cannot understand why they're not getting comments.

2) People are either too worried about their post count or too scared of offending a new member to actually say what they're thinking about their shitter of a map. Even if they do comment, it'll be sugar-coated bullshit meant to make people feel better about themselves. I'm going to use a little-known phrase: "The worst thing you can do to an artist is to tell them their work is perfect, when it's really not." The same applies here.

3) Everyone appears to have some predetermined bias towards the better-known members, which kind of helps add on to issue 2. This also forms small cliques of members who support eachother and collectively ignore newer members, regardless of their forging abilities.

 

Keep in mind that calling people's maps **** is also the -wrong- way to go about things. That is NOT constructive criticism, a term most coined by us in the art community. Constructive criticism is a near-as-possible-to-objective set of statements and, sometimes, questions (to get the artists thinking more). It's fine to pepper in more subjective things, meaning thing related to one's personal taste. Know that true constructive criticism is neither sugar-coating nor all-out berating. Otherwise, yes, your quote is spot on.

In short, language matters.

 

I only said that the hypothetical map was a shitter, not that you should actually call it that. Thanks for reclarifying.

 

I completely agree with all comments above, see i only look around the aesthetic forum as that is my point of intrest, i have commented on others work but alot of my post admitadly are most likely on my own thread! Not that i am proud of this, but i do find it a great way to actually get your map noticed as if you reply to a comment it shots back up to the first post and i know that on the aesthetic forum most people tend to look nomore than the first few post or first page, I feel possiably that i am gaining some rep as i have been messaged by a few big forgers and also had comments from them, xSoGx Grim says hes intrested in my work, and from someone of his calibar to comment and be told my work is good really pleases me as it would others, I do not understand how though and im not bragging my first and only post map atm has reached over 4k views, 30 something comments/feedback, (agreed about 10-15 may be my own) and nearly 800 DLs so far, I have now since gained more intrest from the likes of sea urchin Re4nimate and rifte for my covenant assualt carrier still in progress, i surpose as i have only been around little over a month that i cant complain and i feel i maybe getting some where!

I have also had my name mentioned in post's for having a fairly decent map, like they say any publicisty is good publicisty? so far this seems to be working! and i hope it continues, And hopefully i will get featured for my next map!

 

I completely support you on this as well.
I admit I am a little bit guilty of it, being a veteran member of the site i am sometimes not interested in sifting through the layers and layers of subpar maps to find the good ones.

But believe it or not, this problem extends even to veteran members of the site.
Too often do I have a map test with tons of veteran members of the site involved, only to have none of them comment or download the map afterwards.
I see it as a common courtesy, that at the very least of all the things you suggested, people should at least leave a comment and/or feedback on a map they helped test.

I try to do this a much as possible, and i think everyone else should as well.

Also, I think an important part of making our community improve would be to STOP leaving pointless comments on maps. Too often, a good map slips away into the abyss of the forum because people will look at it, but not comment. Whereas a terrible map that was not even posted properly will receive multiple comments flaming the person, or instructing them to fix the post. By using the report button, instead of replying to threads like this, people will also help improve our community.

You have to understand though, from my personal perspective at least, I dont have the time to check out every map and be fully immersed in supporting new members of the community. I go to school and have a life (kinda =P) and when i do get the time to forge and play halo, im mostly interested in playing with my friends. Its not done for the purpose of alienating other people in the community, i just enjoy playing with my friends. I cant say i speak for all veterans of the site with that statement, but i can guess that i might.

also, i think the supposed bias toward veteran members' maps is a bit exaggerated.
There have already been many maps made by veteran H3 forgers with multiple features on this site that have been totally ignored and not even surpassed 100 downloads.

but, i think part of the bias is justified. being a veteran member of the site (im assuming by this, you mean those of us whose names have color) does mean something. it doesnt necessarily mean your map is good, but it does mean you have been around for a while. its a promise that the map is already going to work right, BEFORE its posted, not after ten different version updates. its a promise that the map is at the very least, decent and will play the gametypes it supports. that part of the bias is justified imo.

 

I agree with this matter completly. I also try my best to download maps and test them for other people. I would've sent an application to the Tester's Guild, but sadly I can't play with them to help test out all of these maps that people made due to my internet. I do my best though, and I'll keep doing my best.