Ive played a lot of H:R since it dropped and I have some insights and suggestions that I think should be discussed. Ive played every Halo game, barring ODST and H2C, and not one of them has felt as out of sync as H:R. When I say out of sync most people would say broken, imbalanced, nooby... stuff like that, but my impression is that there are just a few flaws in the game mechanics that can be tweaked or patched. There are issues such as movement speed and jump height that need to be addressed but these are largely opinion based(even if the majority of players share the same opinion). Then there are issues such as weapon usage and damage that scream for balancing. Melee: The no bleed thru effect is garbage, but only for 1 reason... GRENADES. Why grenades? Because they DO bleed thru, even if you have full health and a sliver of shield the nade explosion... IMO... shouldnt be enough to kill you. Heck I would be happy if it even left you with 1 pip of health because mostly my '1 nade' deaths occur when I am happily behind cover and some mortar of a nade comes out of high-heavan and smites me. Really tho the explosion shouldnt bleed thru any, if the melee doesnt. IMO the only thing that should bleed thru IF MELEE DOESNT is the rocket explosion. Not even sniper body shots. The DMR: There have been countless balance threads on here, MLGPro, se7ensins, bungie, H3F... wherever that all call foul on this weapon. They mostly point out that it should be a 4 shot, or the bloom should be reduced/removed. Well both of these are ok solutions but both would probably break at least 1 other balance equations. If the DMR were a 4 shot then it would be just as good up close as a pistol... and if it had no or reduced bloom then snipers would have a hard time fighting DMR users. Why not go a different approach and add a formula that would reduce the amount of bullet magnetism/auto aim based on the current bloom. That way, assuming full spam, the first shot will have 100% auto aim, the second 66% the third 33% and the rest 0%. A well timed DMR cadence could keep the bloom reasonably low and thus keep the auto aim reasonably high. The only problem I could see with this is having 1 team mate never shoot until someones 1 shot so they have the maximum auto aim all the time. Also I would foresee a ton more complaining about how broken it is when people spam spam spam and cant hit more than 3 shots, when really it would be their own ignorance to the aim system that was holding them back. Alternatively... we could bump the DMR up to a 4 shot weapon, and have all 'Pro' gametypes pistol start with DMR as a pickup/SLIGHT power weapon. Though this would be a cop out in my eyes. The Magnum: Oh gosh, the magnum... returning from H1, nearly. My only suggestion for this gun, assuming the DMR doesnt get turned into a 4 shot... is to turn the PISTOL into a 4 shot OR bump the mags to 10. It is just stupid to me to only have enough ammo in it for 1 kill MAX. Not one kill if you aim correctly and get a headshot... because that would only leave you with 3 more bullets... NOT ENOUGH TO BREAK SHIELDS FOR A MELEE KILL. Scenario 1: Pistol is 4 shot kill. No pistols on spawn, there would be 2-3 per map and considered psuedo power weapons... but still nothing like the plasma pistol which is on every map almost in at least 2 spots. Still only enough bullets to kill 2 people assuming no melees. Scenario 2: 10 bullets. Pistols still on spawn, no need to have any on map anymore except in non-pistol start games as you would carry 30 rounds instead of 24. Hell I would even support 20 rounds TOTAL(1 extra clip). Still only enough to kill 2 people with all bullets hitting and 2 headshots... not TOO much to ask is it? The BR: Gasp... what? This weapon isnt in H:R?!?! Well I know this, but lets theory-craft here for a second longer. If the BR was added into H:R as a POWER WEAPON, with 1 or 2 MAX on a level then this could be very interesting. I say POWER WEAPON because it shouldnt be the same BR we all know and love from H2 or H3... out with the 4 shot (12 bullet) kill... in with the TWO SHOT. What I am saying here is add the BR with the damage of a DMR... so 3 DMR bullets per burst, without hitscan and without bloom but WITH bullet spread. It would take 2 trigger pulls to kill assuming at least 5 bullets hit and the last to hit was a headshot. In reality it would probably be 3 or 4 trigger pulls accounting for latency and strafe and spread. Adding this weapon on, sayyyy Reflection, opposite the sniper rifle, above the health pack at the back of the map would literally change the pacing of this map. No more would a team rush rockets and sniper and camp in the 3x4 area in between the long halls. They would have to control more of the map to make sure that the enemy team didnt ninja the BR and go on a rape spree. Or how about a BR where plasma cannon spawns in Boardwalk? Move rockets to skybridge or where health pack is near the long stairs and voila... campless boardwalk. TLDR: READ IT!!!!
Oh wow only on Forgehub do I like to read full essays. Anyways, I sort of agree with most of what you said. -For starters, I agree that the nades shouldn't bleed like that because they really are too overpowered. -Also, I believe that the melee should be fixed as well. -As for the DMR, I'm a little half and half on the points stated above. Like I do agree with the fact that they have to fix it, because I myself am one of those that complains about easily landing 2-4 shots and not being able to finish off my kill. But I do not agree with the suggestion of making it so that the power of the DMR is reduced after ever shot. If that were to happen, no one would want to start a kill due the fact everyone would be scared of getting killjacked by their teammates' 100% powered shot. -AS for the BR, I don't have faith that it would work out having it in Reach. It would ultimately replace the DMR. regardless of how awesome the DMR is, I would much more prefer using the BR. It is less bullshit than the DMR, and if they make it how you suggest it, it would also be more powerful. That sort of is a quick reflection of what I thought about your thread, but I did think about it a bit more thoroughly. But I'm too lazy too write it all down lolz.
Thx for the insight. It does suck that no matter how they fix the DMR they will likely be breaking some other aspect of the game. My solution would encourage more team shooting but ultimately hurt 1v1s unless you really paid attention to your shot sequence. My thoughts on the BR I proposed were that if it were implemented I wouldnt want it to compete with the DMR. It would be a power weapon, an in between to the DMR and the sniper. Of course it would be preferred over the DMR because it would be outright better and have a faster kill time, which is why I suggested only having 1 or 2 maximum on a map and with long respawn times. Also let me point out that it wouldnt be super OP in my opinion. It would still take 1 BR shot and 2 DMR shots if there were team shooting involved. So there would have to be 3 team mates in 1 spot all with perfect accuracy to '1shot' someone. Heres a link to this thread posted at Bnet, of course it got buried pretty fast and I wouldnt mind a bump here and there yall, thanks. Bungie.net : Halo: Reach Forum
Am I seriously the only person here who doesn't hate the DMR, you all are just stuck in your ways of H3, if you liked the BR so much, why dont you just go and play H3? Theres still enough people playing that. Just remember this is Halo: Reach not Halo 3. Also the magnum is perfectly powered the way it is, its not meant to be even close to a primary weapon as you're trying to make it lean towards, its sidearm. As for the reason why it was so powerful in Halo 1, its because it was the BR/DMR of the game, there was no other midrange weapon in Halo 1. I do agree that Melee should bleed through, but to be able to kill someone they should have no shields, aka if you melee someone with just a sliver of shields left, they'd have 1 sliver of health left. And nades need to be tweaked down just a bit.
Personally I dont hate the DMR. But I believe that the time to kill could be improved without destroying the rest of the weapons or bringing the DMR out of *bungies* intended role. I am speaking from a heavily MLG influenced perspective. The DMR should be exciting to use but after playing from release its just been... lacking. With the movement mechanics being so blah the DMR should really reward aim, timing, and thought but currently it just rewards spam, spam, and spam. Though, Ive never considered your version of melee... in that it bleeds thru but isnt enough to kill a full health person who has less than 1/3 shield. It wouldnt really solve the problem of putting 2 (dmr) shots on someone and being beaten by a double melee.
I agree, if a double melee could still kill regardless of shields and meleeing someone who still had minimal shields would still take 2 hits, we've gained nothing. I can see allowing bleed through and upping it to 3 hits... maybe. @Facts, for the BR, I see what you want with it, but too many power weapons on a map ruin a game as well. If one team gets a hold on the rockets, sniper and br, theres no chance for the other team. The fact that you loose your scope when you're getting shot at is the counter balance to the sniper. Sometimes suppressing fire to escape is better than trying to take on a sniper. I'm fine with the magnum as it is. It shoots faster than a lot of the weapons in the first case and it's only meant as a sidearm. As for the DMR, i can see some adjustment being made, but loss of autoaim/magnetism will make it much easier for someone to come in and steal kills.
Dude I don't get it, If you don't like H:R then go play H:3. You keep whining about the Dmr, the pistol and the grenade! You don't like H:R because you suck at it. Your stuck up on playing halo 3 so much. If you don't like reach, why not MAKE YOUR OWN GAME. Simple as that.
The grenade was overpowered in Halo 3 as well, and the pistol was less powerful in Halo 3 than in Halo: Reach. Also, there always things that a player will disapprove of in every game. No game is perfect. (But the Halo franchise is the closest!) I would be happy if grenades didn't bleed through, and that's all it would take for me. I don't mind the pistol's weak power, though, with the fast fire rate and scope. The only thing I think that should be changed about melee, is maybe drop the damage to inflict slightly less than required to completely drop your shield. I view melee this way because of how many times I've been rushed by sprinters and then double melee'd, beaten by a simple technique requiring no skill, and no way to defeat it except to accept a tie. Changing the damage to this ratio would cause individual encounters to become much more tactical. While the rusher would have to melee you 3 times for a kill, you could get a few rounds into them, and then melee twice for a kill, forcing users of the rushing technique to use actual skill to defeat you. To balance out these factors, on my offline account's custom slayer gametype, melee damage is reduced to 75% and grenade count is reduced to 1. On reticle boom, I don't see anything wrong with it. How does spam firing pay off? It does at close range, but that was how it was designed, and at close range, a DMR is more likely to lose to an AR or magnum than win.
I honestly dont suffer from these problems XD i dont understand why certain ppl want so much changed for whatever reason when i have yet to witness such unbalanced factors =P
Halo 3 I noticed that the grenades weren't as overpowered (but its been a while) Also, fanboy much? There is no way they are going to make it 3 melees for a kill, thats just too much, enough for possibly an assault rifle to kill you all the way. Grenade count only partially solves the problem, because if you use strategic grenades (to perfectly land and drop shields, not spamz, which are the main problem with grenades) then with a good life you'd use more than 1, and possibly more than 2. The only solution I can think of is to have 1 or no grenades at spawn, and to compensate place more grenades around the map.
IMO being killed by someone who has an assault rifle while I am trying to just melee-melee-melee would be ideal. Why has the community come to rely on melee as such a crutch? Its a first person shooter, not a first person boxer. The melee should be there as a quick kill in CQC when your opponent is already on the verge of dying. It shoudlnt be the go to in any close quarters situation. They could even use the AR to balance it, just make the damage per second of melees the exact same as the damage per second of the AR. In this model the AR would still lose to a triple melee, Ill show you why. Lets say you have 90 health total, including shields. Every 1 second the AR does 30 damage, so thats 3 seconds to kill. If melee did the same, and took 1 second to reset then the timeline would look like this. 0.0 AR starts shooting || Melee does 30 damage 0.9 AR has done 29 damage 1.0 AR continues shooting, having done 30 damage || 2nd Melee causes 30 damage (60 total) 1.9 AR has done 59 total damage 2.0 AR has done 60 damage || Melee kills with a total of 90 damage 3.0 AR user is only 2 seconds away from respawn || Melee user is tea bagging I know that those stats arent in any way the stats from the game but it should show that even with 3 melees to kill a system could be worked out where it would be beneficial to use melee only in some situatiions, and in others it would be beneficial to either melee once or even no times. I think more gunplay is more fun. @ Power weapon comment: Yeah that snipe/rocks/BR combo would be pretty hard to take out, good point. Always open to constructive input because Im sure that everything Im saying would probably break the whole rest of the game. Who knows though? We may come up with the perfect balance for H:R. And if anyone think that H:R IS balanced, well... let me just say that Im glad you arent behind the helm at bungie lol. P.S. It seems I cant possibly post a normal sized post, sorry hah. [br][/br]Edited by merge: P.P.S. Fixed the link to b.net forum, it went to the main forum before... here it is again tho. Bungie.net : Halo: Reach Forum : Can we change anything in this game without breaking everything?
Bungie will NEVER make melee a 3 hit kill, its been 2 hits since the beginnning they wont be about to change that now. If you're close enough to be in melee range its your reward to be able to hit someone with decent damage instantly. And yes, I believe Halo Reach is balanced, except armor lock (lets not get into that here, its a whole other discussion) and nades. Power weapons are supposed to be more powerful than starting and other weapons, so that you will want to control them.
Who says Bungie doesn't change things? They introduced armor abilities, a new credit system, and much more armor customization than practically any other game. The armor customization appeals mostly to Halo fans, the credit system appeals mostly to CoD fans, and the armor abilities is really a mix because the Halo community has been calling for a sprint function for a while now. It's the introduction of this sprint system that calls for a reduction in melee damage. They way I'm suggesting melee damage work is that it will only take 3 melees if your shields are full. Even if you've taken only a single bullet from an AR, it will take 2 melees to finish the kill if it was this way. Even better!: If Bungie could implement it, I think what would perfectly solve the problem is that for a certain amount of time after deactivating sprint, your melee damage is reduced, or deactivate the ability to melee for a certain amount of time after deactivating sprint. You hit the nail right on the head. Actually, no, fanman.
agree. go play with your BR in h3 and shut up. the DMR is a perfect weapon Also, although grenades are powerful, I don't think they will be nerfed. In halo 3 they weren't strong enough IMO, you could be standing directly on a frag grenade and still have a bit of shields after the explosion. There was 3 weeks of testing back in May, grenades were already weakened a bit since the beta (blast radius reduced).
You know what was also nerfed since the beta? The Magnum that everyone was fine with. And the reason that Nades in H3 left you with some shield even if you were very close to them was the BR shot 3 bullets... meaning you had to get 2/3 shots hit and 1 of those 2 had to be a headshot to get the nade/headshot. In reach they can be 1/2 way out of the blast and still be no shields.
I'm not asking for the grenades to be nerfed, I'm asking for the damage to not bleed through. No wonder it was so easy to beat someone in close range when I had a pistol and they had an AR in the beta... I think the pistol is less accurate in the final game as well. And I don't remember ever having any shields left after a grenade blast in Halo 3, but oh well. Also, I think it would be better if the explosion timer for the frag grenade was increased, because you need to have at least some chance to get out of the way before detonation. Increasing the detonation timer and changing them not to bleed through would be too much, though. I'd be happier with it not bleeding through rather than an increase in the timer.
I love how they've got this game set up, and if anything i want them to increase the magnitude of the bloom. Especially on the pistol, the DMR is almost a perfect weapon. Either way, this game is no place NEAR how unbalanced H3 was. The mechanics were essentially this; BR>EVERYTHING.
Everything except the rocket launcher, and maybe the sniper, lol. The rocket requires absolutely no skill to acquire a kill with, you just have to rush to it at the beginning of the game. I think the pro pipe is an excellent power weapon to replace it with how much skill it requires to hone correctly. My only complaints remain to be sprint double-melee rushers, and grenade spammers.