Hi Everyone, I'm new to forgehub though I've been a lerker since the beginnings of halo 3 forging. First I wanted to share some opinions on maps made by bungie and users alike. I think most will agree based on topics I have read...Map Symmetry and Complexity! What made Halo 2 maps simple maps that were symmetrical. The only way to ensure a balanced map is making it symmetrical with the exceptions of a few greats...Lockout (mainly due to weapon placements and sets), Ivory Tower (though Reflection doesn't have the same balance in Reach) to name a few. Simplicity will also help if a map is less symmetrical. I see way too many complex maps that do not play well, and too many asymmetrical maps. Keep it simple and symmetrical for the most part and I think the balance will follow. Bungie has started making their maps way to complex, and have gotten away from symmetry. Of course I'm not saying I can do any better, though I have started trying for the first time. I'm looking for people skilled in spawn setups and weapon placement to fine tune 3 maps me and a cousin have made. We also want to test these maps and fine tune them. Respond with your gamertag if you're interested. Thanks! Wheeelman
i can help. and although symmetrical maps assure balance, asymetric assures variety in gameplay. a large amount of the featured competitive maps we had on here in H3 happened to be assymetric. assymetric will be harder to balance, but can payoff more in the end in several cases. even if its just slight assymetry, like valhalla, where the paths are pretty much the same but their are different combat situations and terrain.
I agree that symmetrical maps are easier to balance and make for competitive gameplay... but the maps near and dear to my heart have always been the asymmetrical ones. Damnation and Chill Out in CE; Lockout in Halo 2 - those are probably my all-time favorite three maps (of the vehicle-free maps, anyway). When they are appropriately balanced, which is admittedly hard to nail, they provide the best gameplay experience by far. Of course unbalanced asymmetrical maps can make for the worst games - anyone who was ever spawn-killed on the beach of Last Resort or Zanzibar can attest to that. Nonetheless, in my own map making I almost always start with an asymmetrical concept, trying to go after that Damnation brass ring. I never had more fun than playing CTF on that map. I also agree with Wooden Leaf that maps that are pseudo-symmetrical are maybe better than true symmetrical ones. Valhalla and Blood Gulch were fake-symmetrical with different features on each half that emulated each other just enough that neither team had a huge advantage. From an aesthetic point of view, what I like about asymmetrical maps is the sense of realism, like you're perhaps fighting in a real location. Symmetrical maps almost always feel like they were just designed to be little fighting arenas.
You have a great point of view, your ideas of symmetry and asymettry are very thought out and opinions off everyone are always balanced, I prefer symmetrical myself but, I always thought that a map will only play out as well as the game that holds it up. Swat will be extremely poor if the red team gets to spawn in uber camping because the mapmaker thought this would be a good design. all maps should flow with the game type. I will be up for forge and helping out in general anytime my gamertag is Toiletlord and i will be happy to accept, just let me know your from forge hub
Thanks for all of the replies! I also agree with the pseudo-symmetrical point. Maps that are symmetrical in the most general sense even work the best. The two maps me and my cousin just completed are symmetrical in the most general form but each base side is not a replica of each other and then there is a neutral center to the maps. Another point I want to add is that adding the new armor abilities adds an additional road block in balancing maps. Personally I think they failed at the current state of armor abilities. Additionally, the removal of Slayer Pro Arena is a big mistake. Competitive play should be as balanced as you can make it....armor abilities just add confusion and chaos. Anyway that's a different rant I have with Reach....but it adds to the difficulty of creating balance in gameplay and creation of maps. I'm need to go take screen shots of the map and I will post shortly.
No offense or anything, but it sounds like you need to just play MLG. I'm sure some of the kinks will get worked out (Bungie has a long history of making little balancing tweaks in patches) but the bottom line is that a lot of stuff in Halo isn't precisely calibrated for competitive gameplay; it's just meant to be fun. Leave it to MLG to strip things down to a perfectly-balanced teeter totter. My problem with MLG (and I have participated in it a little bit) is that they go too far in that direction. When I realized that the ideal MLG game would be everybody spawning on opposite sides of an empty box with the same one weapon, I put them in my rearview mirror. (I do like games without motion trackers better than ones with them, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for a few power-ups, rockets, and the Banshee.) To my surprise though, apparently MLG is on board with armor abilities? But only as pick-ups and not loadouts. I'm sure they must be placed exactly equidistant between every starting spawn point though... I do think armor abilities add to the trickiness of balancing a map properly, but everything does - power-ups, power weapons, H3 equipment, trick jumps, and even the basic map features themselves. For me the trade-off is that all this stuff makes the game more fun and complex, as long as the map maker did a pretty good job taking it all into account.
MLG does go too far in the stripped down direction I can agree...but I don't necessarily mean no radar and same weapons....Take Halo 2 for example, you can take many different weapons or combos to battle and have a good chance of success. Starting with halo 3 that is no more....they have made it more range segregated now. BR or currently DMR or nothing at all...and if you are wielding one of these there is no need to move around the map...stay high and far and you win! Halo 2 had excellent weapon balance...can't find a BR, dual wield plasma pistol and any of the long list of guns and you stand a chance or even plasma rifle and pistol/smg...you are still good to go. Noob combo was the only over powered set and could have easily been fixed with turning down the lock-on of the plasma charge. Anyway, lastly I don't find the armor abilities fun at all... invisible sniper taking high ground, doesn't sound fun to me, how about armor lock to beat down...doesn't sound fun to me either, especially since going in for the beat down you usually dont know he is running armor lock until you get played for a fool. Flying isn't so bad nor is running...that said, there are to slayer playlists, which makes room for two different options within the playlist, certainly there is room for a votable option of a Classic Slayer (no armor abilities) anyway this is off topic to begin with so I'll stop ranting. Well I'm about to post my map...it will be in the competitive section. Added after 1 11 minutes: Ok here is the link...My first map post had some issues like posting the thumbnail and player min/max but anyway...check it out! http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-competitive-maps/108526-diesel-hill.html Added after 1 Day 23 Hours: Anybody check out the map?