I don't understand the question. No. There's no such thing as too easy. Unless you were a fan of the poll tax. Then maybe.
I knew there would be a thread like this. But i'm sure with these new possibilities new challenges will arise
The only people who are upset about the idea of forge becoming easier are the people who would come up with as sub-par map design, but get rave reviews for their extensive glitching of the Halo 3 forge engine. The "reviews" by posters reflect this, and the poor habits it has encouraged. example 1: "Great use of geomerging, I'll get back when I play it!" example 2: "Idk, you didnt use much geomerging, 2/10" and they don't even download it in the first place. Because making a clean, sealed map (to prevent lost grenades, etc.) was such a pain, and because you don't get noticed without going above and beyond the engine to use glitches(in h3), a lot of people (myself included) gave up on forging simply because the processes by which making a map "clean" were exhausting, and tediously long. All easier forging means is now people can't rely on hours of glitching to get their maps noticed. It puts the Average Joe back on even terms with those "In the know" as far as glitches are concerned. This gives more people a chance to be recognized for good map design, and not just glitching. If someone is worried about this, they are worried because they aren't good at map design, but are great at glitching, imo.
Yeah I honestly can't believe this question was even raised. It mainly arises out of people in the forge community who have mastered all the intricate, and even difficult tricks and glitches used to forge. They then develop a sense of elitism because they know they are in a very small percentage of Halo 3 players who can forge at that level. So, seeing that Bungie was very kind to allow the other guys to be able to make awesome maps makes the elitist forgers feel threatened. They fear if their "edge" over the rest of the community is lost, then they will be forgotten and edged out. I mean come on, don't be serious. If you are a great forger now you will be an even better forger in the future. Its silly to make things more difficult for yourself. Its selfish to say that Bungie shouldn't make things too easy. Who knows, maybe with things like they are in Halo Reach we will see our numbers here at forgehub grow exponentially, and discover many more talented forgers. Personally I'm very very VERY excited about Forge World. It looks amazing, and I'm definitely gonna dust off my Forge self and get back to forging.
This, and a ton of other responses to the thread. I love how the overwhelming response we give to this thread as a community is that design is king. There's no question about it - and I'm unbelievably excited to see what we can all produce.
This discussion is a lot like the one which went on when tools started to get made for Halo Demo modding; the Hex modders thought the tools made it too easy, and newer people were happy not to have to learn Hex to mod. The tools won out. Would I have liked to see some more basic geometry? Sure. Does that, combined with the added perks of merging, snapping, ect., mean that Reach's Forge is too easy? No; Reach's Forge is easier to use, but not easier to make a genuine map with; I might be able to make a good map in under an hour in Reach, but just because I can doesn't mean I can design a map in the same way Rifte Gifle, or Gunner Grunt, or any other superb map-maker can. And because I can't, that difference in skill means that until I improve, regardless of how fast I can build a map, it will still never be as good as what one of those people can build. And that also means that no map-making tool, no matter how easy, can take away the quality of a map. -=Moxus=-
While I've long held the principle that matty is always on about, that is, restriction leads to creativity (at least in this prospect), I'm very happy about what Bungie unveiled. Halo 3 was marred by imperfection, I always thought up gameplay concepts that couldn't be created without employing a complicated mess of mechanics, if at all. That's the secondary reason behind me only releasing a few maps (behind laziness caused by perfectionism). However, I spent hundreds of hours in forge trying to figure out how to beat the system (in almost every case, managing to do so, aside from the final bar that always stopped me) just because it was so much fun. That being said, we get to create a ton of fun maps, yet restrictions will be there for the ever-creative forger, you just need to find them and figure out how to work around them. In essence, be grateful for what you have, but secretly try to subvert it for the sake of your sanity.
I'm excited for the new Forge to be honest. Also, I think forge will be easy, but I'm not sure if it can be too easy. At least those who could not previously interlock or geomerge will now be able to, and therefore we are likely to get more interesting maps than ever before from the Halo community.
It's an analogy I was using back when ghost merging came, and people were saying the same then. That forging is too easy now, somehow making it accessible to purportedly unworthy forgers. I understand that it's a sentiment born out of the hours of obsessive dedication to right-angles that forging has been, that few people have the patience for. But to me, that attitude is creepily reminiscent of the poll tax from early US history. If you remember, the poll tax was an artificial barrier to access put in place by the established elite to keep black people from voting. See the connection?
You want to get elietest? I'm an oldie forger, and I used to be on par with BL00D F1R3's Merging. This was waaaaay before Ghost merging came out. Then, ghost merging came out, and ****ing noobie crakers could do amazing merges that only select people had been able to to. Now that ****'s gay. What Bungie has done, has seen the community aspect that forge gave halo 3, and rather than giving them the same, they are paying us back, and 1 uping the whole deal. Now that everyone (unless your a down syndrome) can make beautiful map. But now, inorder for it to be a good map, you have make a good map (gameplay wise).
In my own experience of modding the Halo 1 demo, you will come up with far more quality in the map mods by using a tool instead of running around in the hex code. Something that takes 10 minutes in hex can be done in seconds with the new tools. Because of this, I can focus on making interesting weapons and effects instead of painstakingly staring at thousands of lines of 0-9,A-F. Halo 3 is Hex, and Halo Reach is the tool. I have had plenty of ideas, but none of which can be done with my limited play time and small attention span. For example, I have a completely new map mechanic which has never been used before, but no time to correctly implement it into a map. It has been almost a year and a half since I first though of it. In conclusion: Easier to use tools will, in the long run, make far better maps. Instead of focusing mostly on aesthetics and careful mapping, we can focus more on making good gameplay. PS: Hi there Moxus. Good to know we think on the same level (and for good reason).
To be honest, I used to forge the **** out of maps, but lately, I can't even bring myself to finish one without a co-forger. Theres just no motivation to do all the work. This system will show who can use the tools to create something beautiful, without having to sweat blood for it. If anything, at least all the noob maps that come out will be smooth and well built now.
lulz. HOPEFULLY they will be smooth and well built now There is always the possibility that those first time maps could be people just quicky throwing stuff together and not making it neat. But i doubt it.
QFT. I saw the title and honestly had the same reaction as Ladnil, compound frustration at having heard this many times before. But the thread itself and the dominant sentiment cheered me up no end, couldn't agree more with so many things said in here. But to be fair to cart0graph, the point he's making isn't quite what I thought it was when I read the title. The sentiment that really dumbfounds me is that making Forge easier as a process, as a means to an end, will inherently harm the overall results in community maps. This idea confuses me, and I've never heard a reason to back it up which doesn't only confuse me further. But that's not quite what cart0graph was saying as I saw it, just that he will personally enjoy the process less, find it less satisfying. That's perfectly fair in my mind, I can't even begin to empathise with you on it, but hey to each his own. I know you took it as a bit harsh, but I think that's the point RaVNzCRoFT was making. As long as you're talking about subjective enjoyment and satisfaction taken from the process, and not objective criticism of an easier process in terms of what will be produced, then like I said fair enough. Though I do think that such things may be a bit of a learned reaction through H3 Forge establishing a mental standard, how can we say at this point what we'll find to develop and even possibly exploit again in Forge mechanic and technical skill? To say that 'skilled forgers' will no longer have opportunity to display their prowess (which I personally don't see the sense in, but whatever), or even that it just won't be as fun without some really difficult bits (again, can't identify with this, but think it's a much fairer point to make than the former one), ignores the fact that we as a community discovered and developed all these harder processes over the course of H3. Saying these things before we've had a good while to play around with Reach Forge is premature imo, and this is before it's even been released.
Agreed, I can bet the Elite forgers will find ways to outdo the system just like they did in Halo 3. Bungie just made things easier on people like me who fail at forging. I love the concept of forge and I really wanted to be good at it. It was just too difficult. Now I will be able to do forge, degree snapping, Precision movement, and ghost merging (Without the difficult process), and so forth will allow me to get my forge Ideas to come to life. I had dozens of concepts for forge in Halo 3. But I gave up on almost all of them because I just couldn't bring myself to the time consumption. The challenge will remain. But it will be on a much larger scale for everyone and I think thats good.
'Skilled forgers' don't just have the skills to manipulate the objects in a given space, sure that may be what most people think about this, but it's not true. Much more of the skill is to find that middle ground with your maps, to design it to have good gameplay - GREAT Gameplay. Any map can be forged well, but to make the map actually good requires more than the physical skills. This is what sets the 'skilled forgers' out from the rest. They can balance both of those aspects, creating great maps.
If you think of Halo: Reach's forge as "Too easy" then you are a fool. If we already have the ability to brace objects at any angle, and now they're allowing us to do just that with the flip of a switch, then what's wrong with that? If we already have the ability to ghost merge objects, and now they're allowing us to do just that with yes, the flip of a switch, then won't that just allow us to forge quicker? Even if your map is full of geomerging and interlocking, then that doesn't mean it will play well. Oh crap, look at that map, it's all geomerged and perfect, it must have great aesthetics, balance, durability, and gameplay! Whoa! That's not the case here however. Whether or not you have a map with perfect forging on Forge World, that doesn't mean it has the great gameplay. You still need the creativity and skill it took to make maps in Halo 3, it's just that you'll actually be able to build just about anything rather then being held back by your forge skill.
I think the difference in opinion comes from what you're looking for in the game. If you're looking to be a "Forge pro" (I always lol when I hear that), or get "recognition" for your "awesome work", then sure, this is going to make it much harder. Anyone who has a better sense of design than you can build something better, with significantly less time, and it's not about time, drive, and glitches anymore. On the other hand, if you're forging to, well, forge, or if you get the game to play the game...well, then you'll (like I am) probably be extremely excited at the possibilities. It's going to be so easy to make fun maps; customs games will no longer be limited to those few "good" maps that have nice aesthetics. It's gonna be great.