The reason why I specifically ask Prosper this is because he has claimed to have logical reasons to believe in god many times before. It is the crux of many of his arguments, in fact. We aren't talking about whether religion is good or bad. That is an entirely different argument. What we are talking about is if there is a god. Nothing else. I would like to point out, however, that none of the good that you have posted is due to Christianity. Yes, the church helps to organize these events, but the same can be done by any organization. The religious affiliations of your specific organization does not matter. Even if religion were to vanish from the world tomorrow we would still have an equal amount of good in the world, just with none of it claiming to be caused by religion. No. You could define me by what I am - most likely more liberal than the average population, probably seeking a form of higher education, oftentimes intellectual, but often a cynic and a pessimist, also. Now, if I were a proud member of the Flat Earth Society, you could call me a lunatic, because I would be. To do drugs under peer pressure, even if reluctant, would still define you as X. No matter how reluctant you were, people will only perceive your actions. However, if you were to tell them of how your peers influenced you, their opinions of you would change to Y. It doesn't matter what you think; someone's perception of you is only based off only your actions, including the action of simply communicating thought or opinion. Of course; none of this applies to your self-perception. Self-perception is an entirely different story; your thoughts are much more important then your actions.
My response in blue read slowly and carefully to not be confused. "Men are only Gods in Ruins Gods are only Mans delusions." Not a bad quote has good idea of what trying to say.
So here's what you really said. So you can't deny the fact that all of history has been influenced by "god" and religion in general . You know thats how it is yet you wont confirm or deny just look at every single civilization they all have some belief system that they followed (Hold on one sec you guys I'm gonna make **** up now.) to become powerful and to hold power. Religion was the best way to do this it won followers and you need people to be a powerful group. Again, you take something that may or may not be true, then say something that appears to be very insightful however you actually have no basis for your statement. Again, you have no real argument.
Name one civilazation dead or alive that didn't/doesn't use belief systems to control their people that it had/has as followers. Its all a game and I broke it down pretty simply without typing 10 pages of crap and examples that you wont want to read. I don't want to have to type more than a few paragraphs . Sorry it comes out vague and you don't think its has a basis. Look it up yourself im just presenting the information im not the guy thats gonna spoon feed it to you thats your own job. re-read my entire post instead of picking out a single section and ignoring the rest of it. I respond to everything put against me I exspect the same . I match almost every point to point response its not hard so I don't see why its not done. I try me best not to go right off and say "this has no foundation". My thing is that how can I present every single civilization and how they worked with beliefs in a way that doesnt just crash ths site because their is so much info showing what im saying. Look at any single religion/group/population/civilization and see how they worked. Most work with national pride,religious pride,propaganda and many other belief systems to pull in and hold followers to the cause. I couldn't make this **** up haha look at the foundation of the United States its based on those three things I listed above. Look at any country in time and you'll find the exact same thing every time. My goal is to not spue information at you filled with example other wise you probably wont look into them wont read the entire post and most likely loss interest. I make it so you have to look for counter examples and when you start researching you see what I see. You see religion and or beliefs controling people and this can be good or bad depending on the leader .
You really don't have any basis for this whatsoever. Get one, or don't post just to flame. You're claiming lots of "facts" with no backing at all, not even any possible thinking that would come to that conclusion of fact.
Ok find me one civilization with no belief system controling the people. Every country and super power in modern day has religions and lists of beliefs controling them and so do older ones so how do I have no basis? Just think how exactly governments were originaly created.
Simple fallacy. You need to come up with actual facts, not a "well, since everyone has this or that...". FACTS.
Religion is Social Control, page 1 This guy says it better than me^ And wheres the facts that god is real theres no physical proof of him what so ever its bee like 300 pages of us asking for physical proof and none has been given. This debate is bound to end in speculation because its not easy putting facts into a debate when one side doesn't need any and instead throws "faith" as the fact and answer. You can close the debate if you really want lol its an age old argument thats been beaten around for ever. My goals not to offened but to have questions raised that some may have not of asked before.
What kind of proofs are you looking for? Groups need a purpose and something to follow to last . So im just putting religion as a whole as that purpose and the people follow leaders which themselves can be influenced in one way or anouther. Im not sure im clarifying what im trying to say. Its my opinion but thats how I see every group and how they function. 1. purpose to be a group 2. a common belief /something to follow 3. something to keep them together In my head its fact that these things happen, if you feel other wise please describe how a group works. Im open to your opinions of how they work differently from mine. Im not saying that religion is the only form of control people are affected by. Heres the internets opinions from random people they talk about a bunch of ways people are controled along with religious ways. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091130101030AAcrTvc
Obviously earlier civilizations used religion as a means to keep order and communicate. But religion is also confused with government in the past. They were separate, but much of the decisions were concluded off of reputation. And judging by the need for religious freedom, religion in those societies must have been incredibly opressive. Since church was the primary means of articulation, it was clearly a devastating consequence. A way to keep people in line. A modern-day Guantanamo, if you will. But don't get me wrong, the church also had it's many triumphs, along with other early religions. The problem is the oppression and distance it causes between the non-religious and the religious. One always has to be correct, constantly out-dating eachother like a sibling rivalry, instead of just accepting differences. I understand that one of your religion's main goals is to convert others to your faith, but if I say no thanks, that's that.
I'm done. Don't expect me to post anymore. I may read, but I won't post. I'd probably be wrong in any of the arguments I consider posting anyway, though I'd rather see them as correct in my ignorant bliss than burn them here. My last explanation: 1. Religion CAN control people, but not all the time. Christianity i.e. doesn't have any humans in "high" positions or in control of the religion in any way (Church isn't "required," it's tradition). (Christians, not Catholics) Catholics on the other hand, cannot deny that criticism, thanks to their Vatican. This is not to bash Catholics, but to show that the generalization is incorrect. 2. Do we need a logical reason to believe in God? We're not retards, or insane (Rabid). We chose to believe in something that made sense to us. Is that so bad? Why are we pursued by atheists to not believe? I understand coming here, I can't accuse anyone of that, but it still happens. I honestly just see it as existence. My existence is NOT a bunch of random chemical reactions in my brain. If that were so I would not be held responsible for any of my actions or thoughts, and no one could call me or anyone else stupid or evil because all it is science. That is not a world I want to live in. I have soul, and so do you, no one will ever convince me otherwise. 3. Eyeless Sid, give it up. Good bye everyone! (I know you won't miss me, but pretend you do for one post? Please?)
I intended upon responding to your other post but seeing as you are leaving and the debate forum will most likely be removed either today or tomorrow I think I'll hold off until things clear up. For now, though, I hope you have chance to see this post as my farewell to you. Wasn't it you who decided to visit the thread repeatedly and put your beliefs out there in the first place? We didn't "pursue" you anywhere. You came to us. Regardless of whether god exists, it is. You have action potential which allows for muscular movement when is controlled chemically and triggered electrically by a signal from the brain. Taste and smell are based entirely upon chemical reactions within given receptors. Sight and hearing are the result of waves interacting with different receptors providing either an image based on the reflected light or a general idea of where a sound is coming from (along with what it sounds like). When you are touched we can see the brain firing to allow consciousness to be aware of that touch. There are TONS of chemical reactions going on in your brain every second of everyday to make you function. If we cease those reactions you cease to think, move or feel. In cases of split brain patients, doctors and psychologists have recorded two different personalities, two different people, occupying different hemispheres of the brain. MPD allows for there to be over two personalities and the worst case, to date, is over 30 different people occupying a single shell. Synesthesia allows for people to taste sound and feel sight. It is caused by faulty wiring of the brain. You, yourself, only taste the goldfish or steak or hamburger you eat because you smell it. Taste receptors only identify whether something is salty, bitter, sour, or sweet. Your nose is responsible for OVER 90% of the taste you receive. What does this show? It shows your experience is flawed, that two people can diverge from one, that faulty wiring re imagines the human experience, and that chemistry is the driving force of your body (movement, perception, basic structure, metabolism, digestion, thought, growth, etc, etc, etc) Your experience is flawed and imperfect. We only see what our brains can allow us to see. Two people can occupy the same body. Does that mean the souls diverge too? Is MPD nothing more than a possession on a grand scale? If you are only chemistry and neural impulses does that give you the ability to do whatever you want? What if that chemistry wants you to live and to live you must be good? What if that chemistry cares? What if that chemistry is the closest thing we have to a soul? Would you be so willing to reject it?
It is nice that something completely unrelated to what these forums were intended for, brought people to the site. i don't know you prosper, but farewell. If these forums go, oh well, i'm just stating it was kind of cool to see.
To stir the pot... Do you know that religion was originally theorized by people on Psychedelic Plants?
" Ill miss you." My response in blue as usual. Once again my goal is NOT to make anyone leave you shouldn't feel presured to all im doing is bringing up questions that should be asked of anything people follow NOT just religion. If people follow anything strongly they should be able to ask questions still so they can figure out what they think is the right answer.
...Ok, I'ma enter this thread and voice my beliefs. -There is no "god". It's natural for humans to look at some "higher power" in disbelief. -I believe that Jesus was real, but people made too big a deal about him. He must have been a great community organizer, and a great person that people looked up to, but some people (that may have loved him a little too much) must have spread the word that he was the son of God, and then WHOAH THERE, now he's got his own religion! And, also, he didn't become resurrected. Physically impossible. Nature is unbelievable. The brain has been around for about 1 billion years, you'd be surprised that when something is given that much time, then it can do amazing things (in this case, evolve).
They're electrochemical signals. This disproves Determinism how exactly? The only answer to that is suicide. You'll still be living in the exact same scientifically sound reality believing in god or otherwise. Poor prince-on-a-pea. No. No. I couldn't care less about your stubbornness. Don't spread that around though.